Category: Let's talk
One of my DEFINITE "PET PEEVES" is being in a SO-CALLED "RELATIONSHIP" that's either "TRUST-EARNED" or "TRUSTLESS. There's NO OTHER HIGHER/LOWER DIMENTION of ABSOLUTE AWFUL than to EVER have to "EARN" what's SO-CALLED "TRUST," which it's ABSOLUTELY NOT, AT ALL. SUCH is KNOWN AS, which should ONLY BE REFERRED to as, is "TOLLERANCE."
MAKE NO MISTAKE, now--TOLLERANCE is a DEFINITELY POSITIVE HUMAN CHARACTERISTIC that we ALL DO NEED, in order to INTERACT, PRODUCTIVELY, with OTHERS, AS LONG AS TOLLERANCE, ITSELF, is APPROPRIATELY POSITIONED; in OTHER words, ESPECIALLY IN A COMPLETE, ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP, as in ANY OTHER, you simply JUST CAN'T EXPECT to OPERATE WITHOUT TOTAL, UNINHIBITTED TRUST, as being the ABSOLUTE, TOP PRIORITY, ONLY; that's the ONLY WAY that TRUST and TOLLERANCE can EVER WORK EQUALLY. EQUALLY-WORKING is DEFINITELY NOT "WORKING AS THE SAME." For EXAMPLE: TRY (if you drive) DRIVING from NEW YORK CITY to LOS ANGELES, SUCCESSFULLY, WITHOUT PUTTING ANY GAS into the CURRENTLY-COMPLETELY-EMPTY TANK, AND NO BATTERY. You can have ALL the VERY BEST, UNLIKE THE REST (supposedly), of as much TOLLERANCE that ANYONE OF US could EVER IMAGINE, but either COMPLETELY WITHOUT TRUST, or TRUST, having to take the "BACK SEAT," it's JUST LIKE your ABOVE-DESCRIBED "FAILED SUCCESS" NYC/LA (LOS ANGELES, NOT LOUISIANA, in case if I needed to clear up any PROBABLE/POSSIBLE confusion) TRIP. TRUST CANNOT/WILL NOT WORK, AT ALL, EVER, from the "BACK SEAT." It's just as well as NOT THERE, AT ALL, in THAT case! TOLLERANCE, as the DRIVER, is the VERY EXACT SAME as GIVING a LICENSE and PERMIT TO, as well as PUTTING BEHIND THE WHEEL, to be left, TOTALLY UNSUPERVISED, a TOTALLY INEXPERIENCED DRIVER. ALSO, TRUST AND TOLLERANCE, although ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE, EQUALLY, are JUST AS ABSOLUTELY INSEPARABLE--YES, you can CERTAINLY SAY that they're "MARRIED, FOR ALL ETERNITY, TO EACH OTHER." ONE NEVER GOES WITHOUT THE OTHER, ANYWHERE, at ANY TIME, WHATSOEVER. THIS makes it PERFECTLY SO for such to be ONLY FREELY-GIVEN, in order for there to EVER be a PERFECT RELATIONSHIP--YES, I CERTAINLY SAID "PERFECT RELATIONSHIP." "HOW can there be ANY SUCH THING, if WE, HUMANS, are NOT PERFECT?" you might POINT-VALIDLY PROTEST, INQUISITIVELY, or ANGRILY, if SUCH should ever be. You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT--there's ABSOLUTELY NO RELATIONSHIP AMONGST ANY TWO-OR-MORE (OF US HUMANS) that's without ITS SHARE of HUMAN FLAWS, INCLUDING (ESPECIALLY) THOSE RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE "PERFECT." "HOW, THEN, can a ""PERFECT" RELATIONSHIP HAVE FLAWS?" The VERY SAME WAY that US, as TOTALLY-IMPERFECT-ABSOLUTELY-FLAWED-HUMANS can ONE DAY, live a TOTALLY-PERFECT-ABSOLUTELY-NON-FLAWED-ETERNAL LIFE, IF, and ONLY IF, that's what we WANT, which we DEFINITELY DON'T EVER HAVE TO HAVE, if we DON'T. To FURTHER SIMPLIFY, if I ever did, at ALL, the VERY-DESCRIBED TRUST, as the ONE-AND-ONLY-AND-NO-OTHER, can ONLY come from the ONE-AND-ONLY-AND-NO-OTHER-SOURCE, HIMSELF, WHO'S, by the way, the VERY ABSOLUTE, ONE-AND-ONLY-AND-NO-OTHER-TRUST, ITSELF, that's been ALL-ALONG-FOCUSSED of this ENTIRE TOPIC. WITHOUT HIM, there'd be ABSOLUTELY ZILCH, ZIPPO, NOONE, NOTHING, NOWHERE, at NO TIME, and that's JUST how ANY SO-CALLED (ROMANCE, ESPECIALLY) RELATIONSHIP WOULD BE, WITHOUT FREELY-GIVEN TRUST.
UNFORTUNATELY, as PERFECT as FREELY-GIVEN TRUST HAS BEEN, STILL IS, and will ALWAYS BE, it's JUST AS, just like it HAS BEEN, and as long as THIS TEMPORARY, LIMITED "SUBNORMAL" EXISTENCE CONTINUES, until its GLADLY-AWAITED END, WILL BE, VULNERABLE to be BROKEN--you PROBABLY THOUGHT that I wouldn't RECOGNIZABLY (if there's ever such) ACKNOWLEDGE THAT FACT, with as much above attention given to the PERFECTNESS of trust. I mean, it's QUITE OBVIOUS that EVEN in a "PERFECT RELATIONSHIP," HURT CAN/DOES HAPPEN. The ONLY DIFFERENCE, HOWEVER, is that TOLLERANCE, since it's ONLY HUMAN, is DEFINITELY LIMITED, REGARDLESS ITS SPAN. TRUST, on the other hand, is PERFECTLY DIVINE, BEYOND/REGARDLESS TOLLERANCE'S SPAN-LIMITATION.
To FREELY OBTAIN the VERY ABSOLUTE, NON-FLAWED, TOTALLY-IRREPLACEABLE DIVINE GIFT of FREELY-GIVEN TRUST, in its TOTAL COMPLETION, we have to FIRST-AND-FOREMOST RECOGNIZE, DIRECTLY OWN, and WHOLE-HEARTEDLY CONFESS that WE, AS MORTAL, LIMITED, COMPLETELY-FLAWED HUMANS are JUST AS EXACTLY DESCRIBED. The ONE-AND-ONLY-AND-NO-OTHER that we WHOLE-HEARTEDLY CONFESS TO, is the VERY ABSOLUTE SOURCE from where SUCH GIFT CAN BE FREELY GIVEN THROUGH US, in order for US to GIVE TO EACH OTHER, ESPECIALLY our DIVINELY-CHOSEN-SIGNIFICANT OTHER, in the ONE-AND-ONLY-AND-NO-OTHER-WAY that ONLY HE can/will DEFINITELY GIVE it. The VERY ABSOLUTE NAME of this VERY ABSOLUTE SOURCE is JESUS, the VERY ONE, who DEFINITELY KNOWS, TOTALLY-EXPERIENCIALLY, WHAT it EXACTLY IS to be human, who was the ONLY HUMAN that was INDEED PERFECT, in a TOTALLY-IMPERFECT BODY, who paid the VERY ULTIMATE PRICE that ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER HUMAN, BEFORE-AND-AFTER HIM, could EVER PAY for ANYONE ELSE, NO MATTER WHAT, WHO, WHERE, WHEN, WHY OR HOW WHOEVER OF US WAS, IS, or EVER COULD/WOULD BE, in THIS life, and the VERY INSTANT that we make that ULTIMATE CONFESSION that ONLY WE can make, HE JUST-AS-INSTANTLY, and ABSOLUTELY NO LATER THAN THAT VERY INSTANT, WHATSOEVER, GIVES US the VERY BIRTH to the VERY ONE-AND-ONLY-AND-NO-OTHER-ETERNAL LIFE that ONLY-HE-AND-NO-OTHER can give, and ONLY by OUR WHOLE-HEARTED WILLINGNESS to make such decision, can we EVER, who would be TWO, as a FULL-FLEDGED-ROMANCE RELATIONSHIP, EXIST as ONE UNIT, DESPITE EACH OTHER'S FLAWS, AS WELL AS EACH OTHER'S LIMITED TOLLERANCE of them.
It ALL BEGINS with the VERY KEY God gives to ALL OF US, known as FAITH--NOT in EACH OTHER, OURSELVES, but DEFINITELY IN EACH OTHER, through HIS DIVINE INTERVENTION, on OUR behalf, thus is called "DIVINE FAITH," VERY MUCH UNLIKE "HUMAN FAITH." HUMAN FAITH, by ITSELF, has JUST AS MUCH RUNNING POWER as TOLLERANCE DOES, by ITSELF, which CLEARLY DEFINES the VERY UNFORTUNATE EXISTENCE of the ABSOLUTELY-DISGUSTING INFESTATION of PRE-MARITAL BREAK-UPS/DIVORCE. HOW CAN/WHY SHOULD ANY OF US ever wanna ACTUALLY SETTLE for ANY of THAT, since we NEVER, EVER, HAVE TO, AT ALL? Can ANYONE ELSE answer that? I INFINITELY-MULTI-TIMES-DARE YOU TO, because I CERTAINLY CAN'T!
ANYWAY, in ORDER for "DIVINE FAITH" to FULLY OPERATE in OUR LIVES, WE, as IMPOSSIBLE AS SUCH may SEEM, but DEFINITELY is NOT, would CERTAINLY HAVE to be TOTALLY WILLING to COMPLETELY SURRENDER OURSELVES, by TOTALLY BECOMING SELFLESS, by allowing HIM to make us TOTALLY CHRIST-FILLED. ABSOLUTE SELF-SURRENDERING is DEFINITELY SOMETHING that we JUST CANNOT DO, and HE KNOWS THIS--HE ALWAYS KNEW IT, which is JUST WHY HE NEVER EXPECTS US to do it, BECAUSE WE OBVIOUSLY CAN'T, BUT HE CAN, AND HE WILL, BUT HE WON'T, IF WE WON'T ALLOW HIM TO, NOR WILL HE EVER, AGAINST OUR OWN WILL. We just HAVE to EVER BE MINDFUL that if HE DOESN'T, because of OUR NON-ALLOWANCE OF HIM TO, it's ONLY THEN that we fail, and will ALWAYS CONTINUE TO FAIL, JUST AS ANY TOTALLY-TRUSTLESS/TRUST-INAPPROPRIATELY-POSITIONED RELATIONSHIP, ROMANCE-OR-OTHERWISE, FAILS, whether IMMEDIATELY OR EVENTUALLY.
This whole thread is confusing me. I don't see the relationship between religion and a relationship. Granted, I could pray to Aphrodite for romance and sexual enjoyment and safety, to Hera if my partner and I become comitted and especially married to Hestia should we choose to have a family, to Hermes for luck and to Asklepios for health etc. But I don't understand the whole concept of surrendering oneself as you used it. Of course, one does sacrifice in the sense of giving time, making compromises etc with one's partner/s, especially in a romantic relationship and after awhile, one should learn to trust oneself and one's partner/s. But that's just it. Trust must be earned and that's in and out of the bedroom. I'm a very open person. You can ask me just about anything. But for me to honestly trust you, to feel safe letting you take me somewhere, to know that no matter what happens you'll be there, to know that you'd never harm me etc all takes trust and that's certainly not a given.
What YOU'RE expecting, which is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, in fact, CANNOT EVER be ANY to "GUARANTEEDLY," if you will, come from ME, or ANY OTHER HUMAN, as much as I WISH that such COULD, but then AGAIN, to HOPEFULLY ANSWER your quandary of figuring out ... FIRST OF ALL, when I was referring to the LORD, it's DEFINITELY NOT ABOUT "RELIGION," AT ALL, BUT ABOUT "RELATIONSHIP." RELIGION is ONLY MAN'S WAY of ATTEMPTING to PLEASE GOD--the ONLY WAY, and ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER, that ANY OF US CAN please HIM, IS BY OUR UNINHIBITTED FAITH; as a SOLID RESULT of THAT, GENUINE, UNEARNED, PERFECT TRUST, that ONLY HE can "BREATHE" through US, is THEN, and ONLY THEN, born. As far as I know, there's ABSOLUTELY NO HUMANLY-LOGICAL EXPLANATION, WHATSOEVER, as to WHY AND/OR HOW SUCH SHOULD/COULD EVER COME to BE, but that the ONLY IMPORTANT FACTOR of REALIZATION IS: it JUST IS, and THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO it. ALL THAT'S REQUIRED of ANY OF US, SHOULD WE CHOOSE, since NOONE IS FORCED to, in ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, is just to SIMPLY ACCEPT IT, WHOLE-HEARTEDLY--IT'S AN UNMERRITTED GIFT.
Okay, you still didn't answer the question. What does any deity, aside from holding their respective domains, have to do with trusting a mortal being? I could love The Gods but that doesn't mean that that'll make me trust another human being. I suppose though, if I really felt They were helping me or giving me signs that the relationship in question with this human was a good one, I could trust Their judgement or if I was worried about my partner or friend and They made it clear that everything was gonna be okay I could understand where trust comes in. But not in a general sense.
When you TYPE IN CAPS, it looks like you are YELLING on the INTERNET. You should STOP THAT because it is SOCIALLY AWKWARD.
Also, tolerance is spelled with one l, not two.
Trust between humans is given at a base level, but further trust must be earned. If we trusted everyone with our entire lives, we might end up raped, robbed, murdered, swindled...you get the idea. Not fully trusting someone upon first sight is simply intelligent.
Please write to Acapella and tell them to include pitch control in their synths, especially Dimitris. I have no idea when I'm writing in caps and as a blind person, I can't tell, even on one with pitch-control, unless I go letter by letter, if others are doing it. The Mac has a way of automatically going into capslock and I don't realise it. The spelling lesson was nice, but when I'm trying to make an important point, it's invalid. I'm sure I could find some posts wherein I could pick apart your grammar as well but this is not the right board for it.
All of that said, your last point was a good one. Blind trust, especially with people you don't know, is usually not a good thing. It's only natural for trust to be earned.
Okay, I feel like I'm back in college or high school readin one of those confusing papers that the teacher expects us to do a report on. Please write so us normal people can understand and not as if your writing to get your thesis or masters degree.
As for this subject, I don't think I understand the corelation between religion and trust and tolerance.
In my view, tolerance is a great quality in humans that we should all possess. If you don't like someone's religion or race; you shouldn't insult them or try to hurt them, but accept that they are different and believe differently and leave it at that or try to learn something about what they believe. That's how all these stupid wars get started; one group can tolerate another's way of life, religion, race, and stuff like that.
Trust is a basic quality that we're all born with. You trust your parents because they're kind to you and they love you, but trust can be broken as wwhen parents abuse a child, a friend rapes another, someone kills a friend or family member. However, in relationships and with friends; I think trust, full trust, needs to be earned. You can't just put your trust in a supposed friend and give them the keys to your house to watch it for you while on vaccation and then come home and find your house trashed and stuff stolen. There are certain steps that would lead up to that point and if the person you rely on follows through, then I say trust is earned.
Chastity
Hugs Chastity. You summed everything up beautifully, particularly in relation to the original author's posts. In any case, there is a difference between trust and tolerance. Trust, as all have been saying, is earned. It's a feeling of safety and security, the feeling that it's okay to do certain things with someone or to leave certain responsibilities in that person's hands. Tolerance means either that you'll accept someone for who they are or let them do their thing while you do your's. Neither interfeers with the other. You could certainly tolerate someone without trusting them and of course, if you trust them, you're way passed the point of tolerance.
Well, QUITE THOROUGHLY (HOPEFULLY), I'll try to explain, and answer as much as possible--"CAPS" are UNCONVENTIONALLY USED, by ME, that is, for EMPHASIS--yes, I know that ITALICIZING'S the POPULARLY-ACCEPTABLE WAY to do it, but since I'd rather be as UNCONVENTIONAL in THIS area, as I DEFINITELY AM in OTHERS, so much for "POPULAR-ACCEPTABILITY!" So, of COURSE, "YELLING" isn't the ONLY WAY that "caps" can be used for "EXPRESSION," I guess you can say.
Now, like I PROBABLY should've mentioned EARLIER ON in this topic, which I THOUGHT I did, but I'll do it NOW, and HOPEFULLY CLEAR UP any "MISCLARITIES." OBVIOUSLY, (US HUMANS) are NOT INFALIBLE, AT ALL, WHATSOEVER, in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY, so just GET the EVER-DECEPTIVE THOUGHT RIGHT OUT of your "LITTLE HEADS," RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW--it JUST AIN'T HAPP'NIN'! It's NO WONDER we ABSOLUTELY CAN'T "UNINHIBITTEDLY TRUST" EACH OTHER, like we ABSOLUTELY CAN, IF, and ONLY IF, we rely, TOTALLY-DEPENDENT, atALL TIMES, at ALL COSTS, on the ONE AND ONLY "TRUST SOURCE." THIS ONLY MEANS that NONE, ABSOLUTELY NONE of the OTHER "gods" are ANY SUCH SOURCE." OURSELVES, ALONE, AREN'T, EITHER. GOD, and HE, ALONE, with ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER that EVER EXISTS, is the ONLY ONE that ACTUALLY GIVES US the ACTUAL ABILITY to do the ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE--to "BLINDLY TRUST," because ONLY HE KNOWS who would be the PERFECT CHOICE of ANYONE to be UNINHIBITTEDLY ENTRUSTED to. WE don't, which HOPEFULLY DOES EXPLAIN, to ALL OF US, just EXACTLY WHY we EVER-SO-CONSTANTLY SCREW UP, by ACTING on our OWN "LIMITED TRUST ""NON-ABILITIES.""
PERFECT EXAMPLE: in order for me to use my ear-plugs in my keyboard (MUSIC), I SIMPLY need the APPROPRIATE ADAPTER for the VERY JACK that WITHOUT which, it's ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for me to USE them, no matter HOW I would try to CREATIVELY make it work--it's JUST AS WORKABLE as making a WHOLE DOLLAR with ONLY ONE PENNY.
Okay, I'm going to try this again. Trust is earned or built up over time. You wouldn't just leave your baby with a neighbor you only know on sight and by name.
Tolerance is if you are Christian and someone is Muslim. You choose to make a big deal out of, but to let them practice their way and practice yours, but personally, I'd like to learn about the other person too.
If you trust someone, you're way past tolerance as Tiffanitsa mentioned above.
And, as to the original poster, maybe we're all just missing whatever it is you're trying to say. And, I see that this seems to be your writing style. Please remember your early lessons in english class. Very long sentences with commas and semi-colons are still considered run-on sentences and people lose the thread of the whole thing that way. Make things simple and use periods once in a while or your paragraphs look like one giantly huge run-on sentence.
Also you mentioned something about faith somewhere above that I really didn't get in relation to trust and tolerance. You either have faith in something like God, Mohommad, the great spirit or whatever you call it; or you don't.
Just because bad things happen in the world or to people doesn't you stop having faith or trusting your religion. Bad things are brought about by humans and the stupid things we do.
Chastity
WELL, Chastity, what YOU'RE not getting, and PLEASE FORGIVE ME, if I sound critical, because such is DEFINITELY NOT MY INTENTION--is that MY ASSOCIATION with the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, is DEFINITELY NOT a "RELIGIOUS" one. I'm NOT making attempts to please HIM, because MY ABSOLUTE FAITH in ALL THAT HE'S DONE for ME, when HE took MY DESERVED PLACE on the CROSS, is ALL that I, as well as ANY/EVERY ONE OF US would ONLY EVER NEED to please HIM.
To HOPEFULLY EVEN FURTHER explain how "BLIND TRUST" CAN be a POSITIVE THING, ONCE the ONE and ONLY MAIN PRIORITY is the ONLY FOCUS, if you're NOT a SAFE-ENOUGH SWIMMER, which is what I'M not, at VCB, the camp that I regularly attend, you're NEVER, EVER, EVER, under NO CIRCUMSTANCE, WHATSOEVER, allowed in the DEEP END--STRANGELY, though, the DEEP END, if I'm NOT mistaken, is ONLY SIX FEET, but REGARDLESS, in order for ANY OF US to go to the deep area, with either LITTLE or NO SWIMMING EXPERIENCE, we would HAVE to WEAR, EXTREMELY SECURED, a LIFE-JACKET--NO IFS, ANDS, or BUTS--that's the ONLY WAY, and ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER. Such is the VERY SAME CASE with GENUINE TRUST, which ANY LESS than THAT isn't ANY BIT of TRUST, WHATSOEVER. "BLIND TRUST," as the LORD, who's the ONLY GOD of this ETIRE UNIVERSE, and HE, ALONE, DIRECTS, HAS NEVER, STILL NEVER, and WILL NEVER, at NO TIME, EVER, fail. "The GODS," or "the GREAT SPIRIT," or ANY OTHER, whose NOT, AT ALL, the ONE AND ONLY, for ALL ETERNITY, EVER SINCE BEFORE TIME, ITSELF, do JUST AS MUCH GOOD for ANY/ALL of us, as EVIL does.
And this, my friends, is why it does absolutely no good trying to converse with a fundamentalist. They twist logic, have no respect for the different beliefs of others, and are so closed-minded as to believe that not only is their way The One Way (TM) but that they must try to convert others to it. When asked a simple question, they do not offer words of their own, but rather, they repeat what they've heard, or they use the one or two lines they did think up for such an occasion, without presenting truly logical arguments. They attempt to make valid arguments which can be neither tested or checked. It's one to say "I think", "I believe" or "I feel". But when you say "I know", or present something as fact, you need weight to back up that statement, something my ancestors discovered several thousand years ago.
Well, I understand the thing about swimming. If you can't, don't go in deep, but that really go back to trust. You can't trust the water to hold you up all by itself, because it's a fluid substance and it can't.
I understand about God and I believe in God, but I also believe that Jewish people believe in God and so do Muslims, but just with a different set of rules they follow.
Crap! I can't keep this foster kitten off my computer.
Well, there's another example of trust. If the kitten, which was a stray, didn't trust people to give it food and shelter and safety and love, she would probably hiss and growl and scratch. I just spent the morning rounding up a stray mother with several kittens, a bit skittish, but they came as long as you moved slowly. This is an example of something that wants to trust people again, but has had a bad experience in the past and is not sure if it can allow itself to ally with humans again.
Some animals and people will tolerate. There are cats that will tolerate the presence of humans because humans have a nice shed or garage or barn to sleep in; they get fed or keep mice out of the grain and corn. In this way do the farmers tolerate stray cats because cats help protect the harvest from pests.
Anyway, I'm probably still missing the point here. But, that's my take on it. If you believe in some sort of higher power than you put your faith in that power utterly. For humans, trust must be earned. Tolerance is what every human should have if we are to live on this wever shrinking planet with its ever shrinking resources. This means accepting people for who they are, their color, their race, their religious or other beliefs, their sexual orientation and everything. If you think about it, the sighted community tolerates us even though they don't understand how we use computers or braille or even cook or get around town.
Chastity
Awe, hugs to the kitties and their mother. How beautiful and good luck with them. I loved the example btw. Very clear and understandable.
My PERHAPS-ONLY RESPONSE is that the ONE and ONLY WAY is CERTAINLY NOT MINE, but the VERY ONE who CREATED me, as HE did ALL of us--I, MYSELF, wanna go MY OWN way, which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, WHATSOEVER, to do with the ONE AND ONLY WAY. ALSO, this is NEVER to say, AT ALL, that we're NEVER free to choose to "EARN TRUST," but to be DEFINITELY MINDFUL that "EARNED TRUST" is ABSOLUTELY NOT ANY that's worth cherishing, because it's not MEANT to be. "EARNED TRUST," just as ANYTHING ELSE that's earned, is JUST LIKE a PAYCHECK--if you WORK for it, it's OWED to you, so OBVIOUSLY, it's something that YOU, the WORKER, DEMAND.--TO BE CONTINUED
SORRY about that "RUSH-RUSH" previous message, ONLY BECAUSE I was at the LIBRARY, and due to TECH ISSUES, I had a TOTALLY-REDUCED session time--I wanna FIRST clear up what I said in the BEGINNING of that message--I, AT TIMES, instead of going the ONE and ONLY WAY that's the ONLY RIGHT WAY, which NO OTHER, INCLUDING MINE, IS, I would RATHER use my GOD-GIVEN RIGHT (ABUSIVELY) to allow for my SELF-GIVEN RISK, which is DEFINITELY the VERY ABSOLUTE CHOICE that's just as DEFINITELY UNFORTUNATE for ME, as it is for ANYONE ELSE to make.
CASE AND POINT: if you're on US-HIGHWAY-I95, headed NORTH, from either of the CAROLINAS to NEW YORK CITY, it's CERTAINLY YOUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT to YOUR BELIEF that if you head either COMPLETELY SOUTH, COMPLETELY WEST, COMPLETELY SOUTHEAST, or COMPLETELY NORTHWEST, that you'll DEFINITELY REACH NYC, and that you NEVER would EVER HAVE to let "ANY OF THOSE ""FUNDAMENTALISTIC, FUDDY-DUDDY-KNOW-IT-ALLS "DICTATE" THEIR NARROW-MINDEDLY-TOTALLY-CLOSED DIRECTIONS to YOU, AT ALL, EVER, since ALL ROADS, according to that SAME BELIEF SYSTEM that YOU'VE GOD-GIVEN-RIGHTLY CHOSEN to go by, ALL LEAD to NYC. ANOTHER CASE AND POINT: it's JUST AS MUCH your GOD-GIVEN RIGHT to believe that YOUR SIZE-12-1/2 (if you were a man) FEET can ABSOLUTELY-NO-PROBLEM-AT-ALL-FIT into a COMPLETELY-COMFORTABLY-WEARING SIZE 5 (straight-up) pair of MALE-FEET-SHOES. AGAIN, according to that VERY SAME BELIEF-PRINCIPLE, ALL OTHER MALE-FEET-SIZES, as WELL, fit that pair of that SPECIFIC-SIZE-MALE-FEET SHOES.
Of course, we all have the right to believe something. But the cases you used could all definitively be proven wrong. therefore, a logical argument can be made against that belief and the person opposing it could prove they were right. Here, we're dealing with a matter of belief that cannot be proven by any means cause it relates to faith and in this one sense, it actually does tie into trust. Neither of us have seen our choice of deity/s. Even if we have, we can't prove to anyone else that They exist, even if They themselves can. Yet we place our faith and trust in Them, knowing that, for whatever reason, They've provem Themselves to us and for us that's all that matters.
Everyone has the right to believe in something whether that is God, the Great spirit, Vishnu, the worship of the earth, or whatever we want. All humans have the right to choose and make choices for themselves even if there is someone trying to tell us what to do; we still have the choice to listen to the dictator or choose not to, even if that means death. Chossing not to do something is a choice in itself.
So, basically you make your own choices and mistakes and live with the consequences of both. You don't let other people tell you what to believe, what to worship, or what to do.
So, I'm making the choice to agree to disagree with the original poster of this thread as I still don't get the point.
Yes, I did graduate high school and college, but I just am totally missing something here. No offesnse, but I still feel that if a professor graded this I would probably get a C at best since I didn't get the point of the thesis.
I am now making the choice to go play the anagrams games.
Have a good night.
Chastity
It can't be a thesis without supporting arguments, logic, or in the case of opinion, personal experience and cohesion at the very least. A+
Tell you what: visit www.gotquestions.org, as THEY, ESPECIALLY, are DEFINITELY MORE EQUIPPED with ANY ANSWER to ANY QUESTION, concerning what all about what I'VE been posting. ALSO, go to www.letusreason.org to check out what's written about BELIEF SYSTEMS, and so on.
Now, I got THIS from the www.gotquestions.org site, which is SIMILAR to the description of FAITH, TRUST, ETC.--check it out:
Question: "What does the Bible say about hope?"
Answer: Most people understand hope as wishful thinking, as in "I hope something will happen." This is not what the Bible means by hope. The Biblical definition of hope is "confident expectation." Hope is a firm assurance regarding things that are unclear and unknown (Romans 8:24-25; Hebrews 11:1,7). Hope is a fundamental component of the life of the righteous (Proverbs 23:18). Without hope, life loses its meaning (Lamentations 3:18, Job 7:6) and in death there is no hope (Isaiah 38:18, Job 17:15). The righteous who trust or put their hope in God will be helped (Psalm 28:7), and they will not be confounded, put to shame, or disappointed (Isaiah 49:23). The righteous who have this trustful hope in God have a general confidence in God's protection and help (Jeremiah 29:11) and are free from fear and anxiety (Psalm 46:2-3).
The New Testament idea of hope is the recognition that in Christ is found the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises and hope (Matthew 12:21, 1 Peter 1:3). Christian hope is rooted in the faith in the eschatological (end time judgment) act of divine salvation in Christ (Galatians 5:5). Hope of Christians is brought into being through the presence of the promised Holy Spirit (Romans 8:24-25). It is the future hope of the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6), the promises given to Israel (Acts 26:6-7), the redemption of the body and of the whole creation (Romans 8:23-25), eternal glory (Colossians 1:27), eternal life and the inheritance of the saints (Titus 3:5-7), the return of Christ (Titus 2:11-14), transformation into the likeness of Christ (1 John 3:2-3), the salvation of God (1 Timothy 4:10) or simply Christ Himself (1 Timothy 1:1).
The certainty of this blessed future is guaranteed through the indwelling of the Spirit (Romans 8:23-25), Christ in us (Colossians 1:27), and the resurrection of Christ (Acts 2:26). Hope is produced by endurance through suffering (Romans 5:2-5) and is the inspiration behind endurance (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Hebrews 6:11). Those who hope in Christ will see Christ exalted in life and in death (Philippians 1:20). Trustworthy promises from God give us hope (Hebrews 6:18-19), and we may boast in this hope (Hebrews 3:6) and exhibit great boldness in our faith (2 Corinthians 3:12). By contrast, those who do not place their trust in God are said to be without hope (Ephesians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13).
Along with faith and love, hope is an enduring virtue of the Christian life (1 Corinthians 13:13), and love springs from hope (Colossians 1:4-5). Hope produces joy and peace in believers through the power of the Spirit (Romans 12:12, 15:13). Paul attributes his apostolic calling to the hope of eternal glory (Titus 1:1-2). Hope in the return of Christ is the basis for believers to purify themselves in this life (Titus 2:11-14, 1 John 3:3).
Recommended Resource: Cure for the Common Life: Living in Your Sweet Spot by Max Lucado.
Ordinarily, I'd never base an argument on a religious text. Yet because you base your beliefs on it and are trying to explain to us what your views are, it does make sense to use it. I think you're basically saying that if you put your trust in God, everything will be okay? I may not agree with you in specific situations but at least I understand the jist of it. Thanks for providing those sites. We're different on many levels, but there are times when I do things and just trust in The Gods that they'll work out and sometimes, I go into a situation and ask for guidance cause I'm totally confused and I often receive it in one form or another.
In general, this guy gives me a "HEADAKE!."
Other than that there is trust that you can give to someone straight off the bat trust that there is human nature and good in all of us. That is givin trust, but that doesn't mean your trust is unconditional and can't change at a moment's notice.
Tolerence is being able to deal with that person whether or not you feel you can trust them. You may be able to listen to them but it doesn't mean you believe them. Maybe I'm missing the whole point, but this whole thing sounds circular and confusing.
Let me ask you something: do these "GODS" love you? If SO. did you EVER, at ANY TIME, have to EARN their love? Would they even go as far as to DIE an UNDESERVING DEATH for any violation that ONLY YOU'VE committed, and should've died for, instead? How many "gods" are there, and IF ANY, AT ALL, how many of them DO love you THAT much, IF ANY/ALL of them EVER COULD? Is YOURS with these "gods" an ACTUAL PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP, or a RELIGIOUS RITUAL? What ETERNAL DESTINATION can these "gods" SUBSTANTIALLY GUARANTEE YOU, ME, and/or ANYONE for accepting THEIR way of living THIS present life? What work/works needs/need to be done, on OUR end, that the "gods" either CAN'T or WON'T do, in order to be worthy of their "EARNED LOVE," or is it that ANY/ALL WORK/WORKS was/were already taken care of, and all WE have to do is accept THEIR unconditional-love-invitation to a COMPLETE ETERNITY of ABSOLUTE "BLISS?"
THESE QUESTIONS, PLUS MUCH, MUCH MORE, PLUS, are the VERY ONES with JUST-AS-ABSOLUTE ANSWERS that DEFINITELY TEST for GENUINE TRUST, and the TOLERANCE part, in THIS case, would be the ABSOLUTE WILLINGNESS to ENDURE ALL THE WAY.
Very good questions here and I'll answer them to the best of my ability, with no eye towards conflict. One of the major differences between Christianity as a whole and Hellenic Polytheism is that we do not share the notion of The Gods loving us. We as humans are not special and we are not the centre of the universe. But that doesn't mean that They can't take kindly to us and do things in our favour. In that respect, it's always good to honour and to worship Them, to listen to Their guidance and to give back in whatever ways we can. Their benevolence isn't a given and so we must never take it for granted. The only gods that I know of who might die for us, since The full ones can't really die, are The Demigods/heroes, those who are half-deity and half-human. They were a race that existed before our own and often fought in great battles, such as the Trojan War. A little more closer to home is Prometheus, who was severely punished by The Gods for teaching the art of fire to humans. If you take into account The Titans (whom we honour but don't actually worship), The Lesser Gods and the Olympians, no one really knows how many deities exist. However, most people generally group the Olympians into 12, which is why some of us call ourselves Dodecatheonists. I personally say there are at least 15 major deities. Since The Gods do not need us, it is not necessary for us to do great works. They can do anything They please, since They're gods. However, it is highly profitable to do so in many ways, as it could help us gain their favour. Those who take care of the Earth, who are good to their fellow-humans, to children and to animals will often be blessed by The Gods. The Gods punish those who are overboastful, who harm the innocent (animals and humans) and who generally do bad things. continued.
Most things we do are associated with The Gods in one way or another, whether we know it or not. For example, farmers would pray to Demeter and Persephone, businesspeople and gamblers to Hermes, teachers and students to Athena, doctors to Apollon and Asklepios (the modern symbol for medicine is based on His staff), rulers to Zeus and so on. If we take The Gods into account in everything we do, it helps our relations with them grow stronger. I must stress that there are several differences among worshippers of The Gods. Some follow a strict reconstructionist path, reviving the old ways as much as possible while making modern exceptions (no animal sacrifice or slavery etc). Some are middle of the road, not keeping to our texts and doing what they feel is right but still keeping a strict Greek pantheon and following the mainstream ways for the most part. Others are fully eclectic and mix pantheons, practise magic etc. Many reconstructionists stay away from them. I generally try to follow the first path but usually wind up in the second. As for how we see The Gods Themselves, some of us take Them merely as symbols or personifications while others, such as myself, take Them literally and within this group there are those of us who feel close to certain ones. I personally feel a very strong bond with Hermes (taker of souls to The Underworld, giver of eloquence, luck, safe travel and general messenger to all The Gods), Hestia (Goddess of the hearth and home), Aphrodite (Goddess of sexual pleasure and romance) and Athena (Goddess of wisdom, who brought me to my religion in the first place). No particular order, as they're all very much important to me. That said, I try to honour Them all by recognising their place in the cosmos. So when I perform a ritual, it's far more than just following a script or fulfilling an obligation. Our religion is one based on reciprocity. You give to me and I give to you. It's not that they need our gifts, but we want to show our thanks and appreciation and continue the relationship. . As for the afterlife, again, we're split. The texts teach of an Underworld, ruled by Hades and his wife Persephone. There are various places within that Underworld where certain people go. One's for great soldiers and heroes, another one is for generally good people and a third, Tartaros, is similar to your Hell, meant only for the truly wicked and evil among mortals. Yet another text says that we drink water from a special river and forget everything. I personally say I do not know and there are views that I have, such as the one about spirits returning to Earth, either to visit or because they cannot leave, which do not come from my religion.
Now, NOT MEANING the REPETITION, but if you were to visit www.letusreason.org, these "gods," "religions," and so on, are DEFINITELY DESCRIBED, amongst ANY/ALL OTHERS; MY encouragement to ANYONE, reading this topic, is to check out ALL that you'd like to--you don't HAVE to view ALL that's there, UNLESS YOU WANT TO, then post your comments-and/or-so-on HERE; ALSO, if you wanna check out www.gotquestions.org and post comments of what you've read from THERE, you're CERTAINLY encouraged to do THAT, as WELL.
Ok--here are ex-amount examples of what you'll find at www.letusreason.org, and what I wanna do is make sure that WHATEVER EXAMPLE ARTICLE that I post stays AS MUCH on "THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TRUST AND TOLERANCE" as possible, and SHOULD there be any digression, I HOPE that it wouldn't be TOO much, UNLESS that's the way the LORD wants it to go--AFTER ALL, HE, and HE, ONLY, should be the FINAL DECISION as to how this topic is supposed to go, ANYWAY.
Finding the god within
Although this practice is ancient, it cannot be traced to any one person. It is essential to the practice of the Hindu religion. As far as we know, its
origin is found in Hinduism. There are many types of meditations. Meditation claims to work by quieting the mind; the meditator is supposedly able to perceive
the "true" reality which lies within his or her own nature, thereby achieving spiritual "enlightenment." The ultimate level of the transcendental state
is "pure awareness."
Basically it goes like this: you become quiet and turn off all outside influences such as sound and awareness except for one object, such as a picture,
mandala or a sound, usually aum or one's mantra. Meditation is clearly a form of self-hypnosis as the participant repeats the phrases over and over again
concentrating on the sound not the meaning. The breathing becomes very shallow, barely noticeable and the influences from the outside vanish.
When one becomes proficient enough they do not need any training and simply focus within. You slow down your breathing until absolute stillness occurs.
One can meditate by concentrating on their breathing and become one with their breath. Usually yoga is practiced along with this exercise, if one is serious.
Here is where one's experience begins, senses of oneness can occur as well revelations of the unity of all life and past lives. One can also travel into
other realms, be engulfed in light and can meet spirit guides. The ultimate goal of meditation is to self realize your divinity, that you are God. Like
its counterpart Yoga it is Hinduistic to its core. The ultimate goal of meditation and yoga is to realize you are God. "MEDITATE ON YOUR SELF" "WORSHIP
YOUR SELF "YOUR GOD DWELLS WITHIN YOU AS YOU." Swami Muktananda (Siddha Yoga Dham Foundation) Muktananda's advice to his disciples was: "Kneel to your
own self. Honor and worship your own being. God dwells within you as You." This is the essence of Hinduism of which all guru's promote through yoga and
meditation.
Where did it all Begin? In the 60's the gurus came to America and preached against materialism. They could see how we lived. But they were no example as
they relieved people of their material wealth and many enjoyed it themselves. The Maharishi claims that TM's roots can be traced back thousands of years
to Krishna, and then to Buddha-though the Maharishi claims the Buddhists have distorted the teaching. The teaching was restored by a Hindu teacher in A.
D. 800, although it was confined primarily to a few Hindus and Yogis living in Himalayan caves. This changed when Guru Dev came into the full knowledge
of the teaching and passed it on to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, which in turn passed it on to America. The Maharishi was a disciple of Shri Guru Dev, who eliminated
certain elements of yoga that he deemed unessential. Then left India and brought with him a revised discipline to the Western world. He set up The International
Meditation Society whose purpose was to train instructors to teach this technique throughout the Western world.
The Maharishi began to hold introductory lectures on college campuses throughout the United States, and he founded the Students' International Meditation
Society (SIMS), a student organization. Within 6 years of its formation, SIMS claimed to have blossomed to more than 10,000 members in the United States
alone.
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi first introduced TM to the West as a Hindu religious practice. At the time it was openly taught that its purpose was to produce "a
legendary substance called soma in the meditator's body so the gods of the Hindu pantheon could be fed and awakened." (Art Kunkin, "Transcendental Meditation
on Trial, Part Two quoted in Occult Invasion) The Maharishi and his religion became publicly famous when he was introduced to the Beatle's. Photos of them
with him generated an enormous interest. It also shaped the new sound of the Beatles music. (Remember the lyrics, relax and let your mind float downstream).
In the 1960's the Maharishi was open about TM's religious heritage. He advised in his book Transcendental Meditation, that "It seems for the present that
this transcendent, deep meditation should be made available to the peoples through the agencies of government ... health, education, social welfare and
justice."
It was in Madison Square Garden that the Maharishi revealed his plan for permanent world peace. What the world really needed, he said, was one meditation
center staffed by one teacher for every 100,000 people.
It was the Maharishi's intention and plan to teach TM to the entire world. The group incorporated as an educational organization, and the Maharishi Yogi
outlined for the world seven goals he claimed could be reached by practicing TM: (1) Develop the full potential of the individual. (2) Improve governmental
achievement. (3) Realize the highest ideal of education. (4) Solve the problems of crime and all behavior that brings unhappiness to the family of man.
(5) Maximize the intelligent use of the environment. (6) Bring fulfillment to the economic aspirations of the individual. (7) Achieve the spiritual goals
of mankind during this generation. By doing this he would convert all to Hinduism.
By 1975, the United States government had funded seventeen research grants for TM projects. People were joining the movement at the rate of 30,000 a month.
Two books on TM had made the bestseller list.
The introductory lectures claimed that TM was simply a scientific technique that anybody could learn. The practice could help transform society. Maharishi's
modified meditation technique had the practitioner meditating twice each day for 20 minutes using a personal mantra. The mantra was supposed to be a meaningless
sound (instead it was a name of a god) that meditators repeat to themselves to allow thoughts to flow freely or not at all. This would help them achieve
a deep state of rest, and tranquility.
Several parents along with the Spiritual Counterfeits Project, Inc. (based in Berkeley, California) and Americans United for Separation of Church and State
asked the U.S. District Court of New Jersey to abandon this experiment. The plaintiffs argued that TM was a religion and that the teaching of TM in public
schools and the government funding were both an "Establishment of Religion" in violation of the First Amendment to the Constitution. The TM representatives
argued that TM is a secular science, not a religion. The residing Federal Judge J. Curtis Meanor didn't see it their way and ruled that TM is a religion.
The judges looked to the religious nature of Maharishi's SCI textbook, which was being taught, and the religious nature of his Puja initiation ceremony
that TM'ers must go through individually to receive their secret meditation mantra. Without that mantra it is impossible to practice TM.
At the compulsory Puja ceremony, which was held outside the school building, each student brought some fruit, flowers and a clean white handkerchief, which
were taken and laid on a table in a closed room. The student's teacher would bow and make offerings several times to an 8" by 12" color photograph of Guru
Dev, who is Maharishi's teacher, and had died in the 1950s. Each student's teacher also sang a chant in Sankskrit and the student received "his own personal
mantra which is never to be revealed to any other person." Or so they thought (592 F.2d at 198.)
TM witnesses swore that the chan
was a purely secular expression of gratitude to teachers. However, Judge Meanor read an English translation prepared by
TM and found not one word of thanks in it. Rather, the chant described a deified Guru Dev as "the Lord" among number of other divine labels.
Here's what Judge Meanor found. "The Unbounded, like the endless canopy of the sky, the omnipresent in all creation .... to Him, to Shri Guru Dev, I bow
down. The Eternal, the Pure, the Immovable .... to Shri Guru Dev, I bow down."
One can experience laughter, crying, immense sadness to depression, even fatigue, which is the opposite of what it is supposed to do. Many studies (the
movement has tried to suppress) have found, that approximately 40% of the people who practice TM develop adverse effects. Most TM' practitioners get advanced
techniques of TM about every 18 months. Here's an example of one mantra that supposedly is not religious. 6th Shri Aing Namah Namah (The mantra is thought
in the heart area of the body). Interpretation. Shri = oh most beautiful Aing = Hindu goddess saraswati Namah = I bow down.
The cost for pursuing your enlightenment doesn't come cheap either; it starts at $600 and can go as high as $4000. How different from what Christ offers
which is for free. And while Christ doesn't offer enlightenment, he alone can give forgiveness of our sins, which is a quantum leap into the real problem
we have and the reality we live in. When TM was excluded from public schools and government funding as a religious practice, Maharishi changed his explanation
from religion to science. He began a campaign presenting TM as pure science. A deliberate deception which doesn't say too much on the integrity of a guru
who is supposed to be united as God, or God himself. This is what the Beatles discovered as they said they found him to be only a man. In 1974 [he] . .
. completely renamed all the corporations... [under] a new set of Articles of Incorporation, deleting everything that said "spiritual" and "religious"
to legitimize the teaching of Hinduism.
For example, Maharishi . . . began calling God "the vacuum state." He instructed [TMers] in the deception. (cited in Occult Invasion) This state of consciousness
promised to bring complete rest while one is still awake. This transcendental state would bring one beyond waking, sleeping, or dreaming, reaching a level
of relaxation while being completely alert.
According to Kropinski, Maharishi told those on the inside: The Influence of Eastern Mysticism …It doesn't matter if you lie teaching people . . . [because]
TM is the ultimate, absolute spiritual authority on the face of this Earth. [TMers] are the only teachers arid upholders of genuine spiritual tradition
.... They're running the universe. They are controlling the gods through the soma sacrifice ( ibid p.225). Much was expected from TM. John Hagelin a quantum
physicist who believes in transcendental meditation, took 4,000 yogic flyers to Washington to reduce violent crimes through meditation. Afterwards the
murder rate soured. Recently The Maharishi announced an even bigger project. His plans are to get 40,000 yogis in India to "hop" while they simultaneously
assume the lotus position. According to the Newsday report "this will create a force field that can repel hatred and spread happiness in the world's collective
consciousness" ("Peace could be just a hop away" Newsday Oct.1, 2001 p.A19)
In 1975, William Johnston warned in his Silent Music: The Science of Meditation: Anyone with the slightest experience of meditation knows about the uprising
of the unconscious and the possible resultant turmoil, to say nothing of the increased psychic power that meditation brings. All this could have the greatest
social consequences if meditation becomes widespread. Well it has and unknown to many they are practicing Hinduism and entering into the world of the occult.
Many who enter into altered states through practicing occult meditation have been confronted by non- human entities both good and bad. Former TM instructor,
R.D. Scott, tells of numerous "spirit manifestations" among meditators. These included "visions of floating green eyes . . . creatures of light floating
above the Puja table [TM initiation-ceremony altar]. " Ghoulish creatures materialized periodically to stare with terrifying expressions at participants."
Refuting the claim that these experiences were merely hallucinations, Scott points out that often more than one person saw "the same procession of spirit
creatures simultaneously and without any advance warning" (cited in Occult Invasion p.224).
The advanced practice of TM has them meditate for hours at a time. That can stimulate delusions and hallucinations changing ones perception of reality.
It can make one oversensitive or dull their senses depending on the person's psyche. In Yoga Journal, Ken Wilber (practicing mystic and yoga enthusiast,
often called today's "Einstein of consciousness") warns that any form of Eastern meditation, even done "correctly," involves "a whole series of deaths
and rebirths; extraordinary conflicts and stresses . . . some very rough and frightening times." (Catherine Ingram, "Ken Wilber: The Pundit of Transpersonal
Psychology," in Yoga Journal, September/October 1987, p. 43.cited in Occult Invasion)
In an interview in Yoga Journal, Ken Wilber (practicing mystic and yoga enthusiast, often called today's "Einstein of consciousness") warns that any form
of Eastern meditation, even done "correctly," involves "a whole series of deaths and rebirths; extraordinary conflicts and stresses . . . some very rough
and frightening times." (cited in Occult Invasion by Dave Hunt).
Former TMers have filed lawsuits asking millions of dollars in damages because of the trauma they suffered through TM. Kropinski (who won such a lawsuit)
relates that people experienced violent shaking, hallucinations, murderous impulses, and suicidal thoughts "as a result of the TM practice." At teacher
training sessions distraught TMers would complain of flying into uncontrollable rages in the midst of meditation, smashing furniture, assaulting their
roommates, and trying to commit suicide. Some have committed suicide and others have gone insane. (Occult Invasion p.225)
In Hollywood, the musical stars eventually turned their focus away from Maharishi Yogi to something new. Unfortunately it has never left. Today Meditation
is mainstreamed into our culture and has become widespread regardless of its religious undertones. It is offered in the local YMCA, the 'United Nations,
churches, sports clinics, and some hospitals. Transcendental Meditation (TM) is now in virtually every major city in this country. TM is taught in well
over 200 centers across America. About 6,000 doctors practice TM or recommend it to their patients. Currently almost 3 million people have been initiated
into Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's occult system of transcendental meditation and 1million people in the United States practice TM regularly. Other types of
Meditations are practiced by literally ten to twenty million people in this country.
As author Dave Hunt points out "The very title Transcendental is a fraud. TM is pantheistic and thus denies a transcendent God. It leads one deep within
to find the "true self." Our society has become obsessed with self, a self which it is determined to elevate to godhood."(Occult Invasion, A Dark and a
Light Side p.105)
Mystical, occult religions in America practice their own brand of meditation, such as Druidism, Kabbalism, and mediumism. Hundreds of new and old religions
and cults also have meditation: the Association for Research and Enlightenment (Edgar Cayce), the Church Universal and Triumphant (Elizabeth Claire Prophet),
Eckankar, the Gurdjieff Foundation, the Rosicrucians, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Astara, such as Sufism, Sikhism, Taoism, Tantrism, and others all stress
the importance of their medi-
tation procedures.
Dozens of Hindu and Buddhist gurus or groups all require meditation practice in conjunction with their religious practices: Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, Swami
Kriyananda, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, SYDA Foundation (Muktananda), Sai Baba, Yogi Bhajan, Swami Rama, Maharaj Ji, Kirpal Singh, Sri Chinmoy, Self Realization
Fellowship (Paramahansa Yogananda), ISKCON, Da Free John, and many others all emphasize the importance of meditation. Rajneesh's "chaotic (dynamic?) meditation"
is probably the most potent-and dangerous for the naïve participants. Where he has them jumping and constantly moving up and down screaming for hours at
a time. He then brings them to an immediate standstill in silence, from this ensues a state of what the participant perceives as bliss and calmness.
The "Kalachakra" is a several day Buddhist event. Containing "Earth Rituals" with prayer presentations, ceremonies, student initiations, Buddhist teachings,
ritual offering dances, and times of meditation for healing and harmony. Kalachakra is supposed to add to the "universal" life energy of "peace" and "world
love." It is this method of mediation that is promoted by the Dalai Lama.
According to Robert Muller the former UN Assistant Secretary General, a young American college student helped him to understand meditation by giving him
a catalogue from Maharishi International University. Muller shares, "I kept the volume and read it in the airplane. I was fascinated by it. I learned how
meditation functioned and what it did for the fulfillment of the human person. I discovered that I had been meditating for years without knowing it" (Robert
Muller, Most of All, They Taught Me Happiness, p. 81,1985).
Meditation promoters also claim the practice has numerous health benefits. While making someone calm by removing thoughts that can bring stress. This can
be beneficial, but one does not have to resort to meditation to do so.
Many of the promoters have graced the covers of Time and Newsweek, They and their followers have been promoted on Oprah, Geraldo and other talk shows. Who
are they? The Hindu Evangelist Deepok Chopra, and his guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. They are the new pioneers telling us how to deal with stress.
Today Meditation is gaining wider and wider acceptance in the medical field under the innocent sounding title "MIND-BODY Medicine." Therapist Lynne D. Finney
explained this proposition very concisely in her book, Reach for the Rainbow. "Meditation is no longer for mystics. Western society has discovered that
the old gurus really had something, that the ancient eastern wisdom works, and that meditation is not only applicable to our modern society but may be
its savior" (page 240).
Now it is for kids as the once popular Teen-Age Mutant Ninja Turtles, promote special powers through Eastern meditation learned from their guru, Splinter
the Rat. Dr. Harold Bloomfield, a promoter of transcendental meditation, while addressing the 1978 Holistic Health Conference in San Diego, stated, "In
your essential nature you are divine and that's a major focus of our holistic health movement." (Occult Shock and Psychic Forces, Wilson and Weldon, p.
155).
The Readers Digest Society had published a book entitled Reader's Digest's Family Guide to Natural Medicine. In it they picture H. B. Blavatsky and Annie
Besant, two of the founding Figures of modern occultism. On the opposite page is the leader of TM, the Maharishi Mehesh Yogi. The accompanying text explains
(that meditation leads to "spiritual rewards" and "oneness with the universe."
Djwal Kul states" It is impossible to progress along the spiritual path except through the practice of [Eastern] meditation. (Djwal Kul, ancient Tibetan
Master) This westernized form of Hinduism is hidden from the public. As they are not told what the gurus actually teach. True meditation leads to a self
discovery of unprecedented proportions, You are God!
"MAN IS DIVINE. THE INNER MAN IS FULLY DIVINE. Vedanta teaches no other dogma...." ( Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Hindu leader of Transcendental Meditation. "Transcendental
Meditation," P.58) "BE STILL.. AND KNOW THAT YOU ARE GOD ... when you know that YOU ARE GOD, YOU WILL BEGIN TO LIVE GODHOOD..." (Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
"Meditations of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi," p.178) Many Gurus quote Ps.46:10 "be still and know I Am God" to support their meditations goal. But it really
means to stop striving and struggling and rest in him confident of his watchful care over your life. It does not mean to discover you are God.
God says he alone is God, the creator, and the Gods who have not made the heavens and the earth will perish. Can any guru or mediator claim they created
the universe? Isaiah 47:10 "For you have trusted in your wickedness; you have said, 'No one sees me'; your wisdom and your knowledge have warped you; and
you have said in your heart, 'I am', and there is no one else besides me." There is only one God and there is one thing we can be sure of-- we are not
Him!
Gurus tell us the problem with mankind is that man thinks he is a separate individual, we need to see the interconnectiveness of all life, all is part of
God. This is called pantheism. By meditating, our life and our reality will respond to our changed thinking. Today we have similar techniques applied in
the church, its called positive confession. Which is like its Occultic counterpart decreeing.
Acceptance in Christianity Unfortunately, Eastern forms of meditation are practiced by Christians in many churches. Which has sparked a new openness by
Catholics, Protestants, or Eastern Orthodox appreciation of meditation as Thousands of priests and nuns practice TM and Zen. The goal of Zen is to inhibit
the intellect, which gives way to insight, and you begin to understand your true nature. You attain "Satori" experiencing a synthesis with the universal
mind, and you walk in total awareness. Robert Schuller of the Hour of Power endorsed meditation as valid: A variety of approaches to meditation . . . is
employed by many different religions as well as by various nonreligious mind-control systems. In all forms . . . TM, Zen Buddhism, or Yoga . . . the meditator
endeavors to overcome the conscious mind ... It is important to remember that meditation in any form is the harnessing, by human means, of God's divine
laws ... Transcendental Meditation or TM . . . is not a religion nor is it necessarily anti-Christian. (Robert Schuller, Peace of Mind Through Possibility
Thinking 1977, pp. 131-32). Meditation techniques are called various names to offer the practice to those who are naïve of Hinduism. One is called centering
in prayer or in other ways which visualization can be used. Fr. Thomas Keating teaches on centering prayer who tells us contemplative prayer is a way of
tuning into a fuller level of reality that is always present…"(Open mind, open heart p.37). He explains "My acquaintance with eastern methods of meditation
has convinced me that there is…there are ways of calming the mind in the spiritual disciplines of both the east and the west…many serious seekers of truth
study the eastern religions…" What he is promoting is the concept of God permeating the air as prana. There is a new trend in worship music which has people
speaking of God as the air we breathe as his presence and even the ground we live on. watch out for pantheistic concepts creeping into the church.
Evangelical author Richard Foster speaks on personal renewal by meditative prayer where one centers down becoming quiet and passive and then uses guided
imagery and visualization of Christ. His book Celebration of Discipline was on the Christian bestseller list for many months. In his chapter on meditation
he stresses discovering "the inner reality of the spiritual world [which] is available to all who are willing to search for it." While Foster does say
one should distinguish between Eastern medita-
tion and Christian forms, they are, "worlds apart" Foster also encourages "centering" exercises and concentrating
on one's breath, also a common Eastern technique: unfortunately, his methods offered have similarities to new age or Eastern techniques that are used in
meditation.
Foster has meditation aimed at centering oneself begins by concentrating on breathing. Inhale deeply, slowly tilting your head back as far as it will go.
Then exhale, allowing your head slowly to come forward until your chin nearly rests on your chest. Do this for several moments, praying inwardly something
like this: "Lord, I exhale my fear over my geometry exam, I inhale Your peace. I exhale my spiritual apathy, I inhale Your light and life. Then, as before,
become silent outwardly and inwardly. Be attentive to the inward living Christ."
In goes the good stuff out goes the bad. This clearly is combining eastern ways with Christ and it has a Christian veneer but is decidedly unbiblical.
The bible tells us to keep our minds on guard and protected. To bring oneself into a passive mental state, this type of consciousness is a steppingstone
to the occult. For when the mind is not protected anything can enter in. Emptying thoughts means falsehood can be sent in without any resistance. Our mind
will go from being a battleground to a garbage dump unless we have protection.
2 Cor. 10:5 states " casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity
to the obedience of Christ. Under control means to be submitted to Christ. This is also by the word an objective thinking practice. Biblical meditation
is having our minds actively engaged on contemplating God's word. James 4:7 says to submit to God resist the devil and he will flee from you. Resistance
is key to staying sober in mind. To do this one must be aware of their surroundings, thinking.
Unlike New Age meditation, biblical meditation doesn't involve mysticism or emptying the mind. Rather, biblical meditation involves objective contemplation
and deep reflection on God's Word (Joshua 1:8) as well as (Psalm 1:2; 119; 19:14; 48:9; 77:12; 143:5) works, not on images or dreams. (His Word His Person
and faithfulness and works Josh.1:18;Ps.77:12, 104:34; 119:15,23,48,78, 97;148; 1 Tim.4:15).
Christian meditation calls us to look to God, not inward. The purpose is that our minds may be filled with godly wisdom and insight so that our hearts may
be filled with comfort, happiness, and joy. To echo the opening words of the psalmist, "Blessed is the man ... [whose] delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night" (Psalm 1:1,2). We think and use our mind to grasp what is being expressed by his word and allow it to affect
our heart.
We are told that meditation is natural, that when someone sleeps they go into a meditative state. When one meditates it is the same thing. No it is not!
This is completely different from forcing and training yourself with some technique to stop the natural thinking process when you are awake. Sleeping is
a natural occurrence and the mind and body shut down regularly to relax and replenish because they are exhausted. The other is being conscious and forcing
the mind to slow down, relax while the body is energized and awake. If we really want to get rid of the stress in our lives and have peace the Bible gives
many precepts to follow. We are told to have rest (Ps.37:1-11). For good health we are to exercise, eat food when hungry (Acts 27:34) being our strong
in faith allows us to eat all things (Rom.14). Listening to God's word and being obedient gives us health to our flesh (Prov.4:20-22), he made us and knows
what our needs are. Having a merry (cheerful) heart does good like medicine, but a broken spirit dries up the bones." A good attitude and being content
which comes by trusting in the Lord (Prov.17:22). "A sound heart is life to the body, but envy is rottenness to the bones (Prov.14:30). Prov.3:8 "To fear
the Lord and remove oneself from evil, It will be health to your flesh, and strength to your bones." For spiritual matters there is only one solution.
We cannot find peace or truth by going within. Chanting or stilling the mind will not resolve the real issues of life. This may sound trite to some but
it is the truth. We need to surrender to Jesus and have him become our savoir and remove the guilt, shame, and sin from our lives. Only then can we get
on with finding our purpose and be fulfilled.
At WHICHEVER POINT, I intend to copy the article on "YOGA," which is also on the www.letusreason.org site.
I'm somewhat familiar with Hinduism and their meditation practices from my studies in school as well as my personal interest. I often meditate in that same way,, not transcendental, but in the way first discussed, concentrating on my own breath and blocking everything else out. I usually do it for maybe 20 minutes at a time and no more than once a day. I used to feel wonderful when I did that but haven't in awhile. There are alot of things that the true meditation and yoga masters can accomplish which baffle and amaze me and I'm in awe of the real ones who can do them. That said, I've never used meditation for religious purposes. Certainly, the mind is a very powerful thing and it can do alot. But I always leave the really big things to The gods themselves. I have heard, though, that one can perform good oracular work with The Gods through various means, and I'd imagine that meditation and trances are two of these. It's also good for purification before ritual. I knew of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi by name but never knew how fraudulent he turned out to be. There were probably many Hindus who were very upset at this abuse of their religion. In Hellenic Polytheism, we share a belief that The Gods can take whatever form they choose. They can appear as friends, enemies, lovers, relatives or even animals. this is why we believe in hospitality towards strangers. You never know if the person with whom you're speaking is a god. However, the likelyhood is extremely rare and most of us don't believe that The gods are within us. Even when they change, they're not posessing the person/animal, just taking his/her form. Personally, I'd never believe in someone's divinity unless they could prove it to me beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind. asking for money is a sure sign of mortality, as no god would need it. I agree that traveling on the astral plane can be very dangerous, particularly for the unskilled. I very much respect the spiritual realm and wish to work on my general mediumship and psychic abilities (practises separate from my religion) but would never cross that boundary unless I knew what I was doing. Doing anything that mentally strenuous for hours at a time is never a good thing, so of course, it'll have bad affects on the mind. All that said, it must be remembered that many of these people practising tm were also under the influence of heavy drugs like lsd, which produce hallucinations and are dangerous within themselves. That's not enlightenment, that's death and insanity. But in general, I see no problem with meditation as a whole. One of the things that I can't comprehend about Christianity is the idea of blind faith, of trust without question. It's always a good idea to study the holy texts of one's faith, but I was always taught, but at home and by my religion, to ask questions. How can you ever learn and how can your faith grow strong if you don't pursue knowledge and question your deity/s? Also, how can anyone but ourselves remove any kind of guilt, shame etc from our lives? If we don't confront the things that made us feel this way in the first place, we'll always feel and fear them. I think, though, that I understand your idea of trust in so far as I now know your theory.
spine slithering like a snake upward to reunion with Shiva at the crown of the head. When god and goddess unite in sexual embrace, enlightenment occurs, illusion vanishes, and there is only One. This rising Kundalini flow also causes one to go into an altered state of consciousness, as the heart chakra opens. This can be one of the most dangerous practices in yoga and is not to be underestimated in its ability to harm. Connected with the Kundalini practice is an elaborate occult system that sees the human body as integrated to within and without. The occultists world view is summed up by the statement as “within so without.” The Beatles sang a song influenced by the Maharishi “life flows within you an without you.” Yogis have the ability to slow down their breathing surviving on almost no oxygen and to remain motionless for hours, thus freeing themselves from the supposed “illusion” of this life.
Without going into all the different aspects and functions of each yoga, I would like for us to examine the one most commonly practiced, Hatha yoga.
The words Ha and tha represent the energy which is on each side of the spinal column. Hatha yoga suppresses the flow of energies through these passages, forcing the kundalini (“serpent power”) to rise from the base of the spine through the psychic energy channel in the sushumn (the spine), up through each of the chakras.
The goal of advanced yoga students is to attain their highest possible degree of physical, mental, and spiritual integration. Ultimately to reach union with Brahma is not simply for exercise. It is a fact that yoga migrated to the west first as a spiritual discipline. At the time Vegetarianism and non-violence were promoted quite successfully as key elements of yogic philosophy. It actually helped change the culture and promote the hippie lifestyle which later transformed and matured into the new age movement we have today.
Today it is now popular to bring the children to Yoga classes to calm them down from their hyperactivity and get them under control.
The typical American taking yoga classes has little or no idea of the how’s and why's of yoga's seeming effectiveness. Yoga is a series of exercises and postures (asanas) which are advertised as a way to tone up, reduce stress and experience tranquility. In the traditional understanding, physical yoga has a great deal more to do with the practitioner's invisible, “subtle” body, than it does with the flesh and bones and muscles that encase it. While yoga does purport to first of all work on the muscular, glandular, and physical nervous systems, its real import, as Danielou says, is as “a process of control of the gross body which aims at freeing the subtle body.” (Danielou, p. 18 referenced from SCP Journal).
This subtle body is extremely complex, but can be superficially described as consisting of 72,000 invisible psychic channels called nadis, which constitute an other-dimensional body that directly corresponds to the physical, or gross body. she subtle body is connected to the gross body at several points, which are the seven chakra points. Almost all those who practice new age therapies would be familiar with energy points called chakras.
There is no Hinduism without its practice, it is essential and spiritual. There is no yoga that is strictly aimed for the physical body, it is essentially spiritual because of its purpose. Asanas (the body postures) are one of the first methods of arousing the kundalini. Yoga is used to escape from this unreal world of time and sense which is called maya, an illusion. The goal is to reach moksha, a Hindu Nirvanna.Yoga was developed as an escape from endless reincarnations. Georg Feuerstein, Ph.D., founder and director of the Yoga Research and Education center says that Yoga has two meanings: it’s the discipline and the actual union. When we have the union, we don’t need the gear anymore. But few people can claim to have reached that level. There are practitioners who have been allowed glimpses of it, but full enlightenment is a very rare accomplishment.
The word yoga is Sanskrit; it derives from a verbal root, yuj, meaning “to yoke or join or fasten or harness, as in horses to a chariot; to concentrate the mind in order to obtain union with the Universal Spirit; to be absorbed in meditation.”' Its meaning in plain language is union or yoking with the God consciousness.
Yoga is an intrinsic part of Hinduism. Swami Vishnudevananda, well known authority of Yoga, in his book “The Complete Illustrated Book of Yoga” explains the purpose of Yoga, “It is the duty of each developed man to train his body to the highest degree of perfection so that it may be used to pursue spiritual purposes... the aim of all yoga practice is to achieve truth wherein the individual soul identifies itself with the supreme soul of God.” In the Hindu philosophy is taught that the ultimate reality is consciousness or energy (God-Brahman). Each individual soul (Atman) has seven energy centers known as chakras in his body that run along the spinal column. By opening up these energy centers aligning these chakras, for the energy to merge with the ultimate cosmic energy and to experience “Atman who is Brahman.”
B. K. S. Iyengar, the founder of the more popular form of Hatha Yoga used in the U.S. states yoga is, “the means by which the human soul may be completely united with the Supreme Spirit pervading the universe and thus attain liberation” (Yoga Journal, May/June 1993, p. 69 Quote from http://cana.userworld.com/cana_yoga.html ). The yoga teachers do admit that its function is spiritual not just physical.
Focusing on a series of stretching exercises, breathing practices, and meditation to reach a state of peace and harmony, this physical discipline is merely a means to an end. It is a spiritual exercise and the spiritual awakening is really the serpent power (Kundalini) an energy that when released streams up the spine, where tremors, spasms and sometimes violent shaking and twisting are experienced.
The yoga positions are designed to reach the state of Samadhi, or a state of union with self as God. Hatha yoga in its postures bring the subtle body into a specific alignment with the physical which will alter the consciousness of the participant. In other words one is practicing one of the essential elements of Hinduism when doing their Hatha Yoga exercises; whether they are aware of it or not.
“Hatha Yoga plays an important part in the development of the human being... the body working in harmony with the mind, to bring the seeker into closer contact with the Higher Self.”
Swami Sivenanda Radha, a well-known yoga teacher, has said in the book on Hatha Yoga, “Asanas are a devotional practice...each asana creates a certain state of mind...to bring the seeker into closer contact with the Higher Self” (Quote from http://cana.userworld.com/cana_yoga.html ).
Pranayama is the breathing process; by inhalation, exhalation one absorbs vital energy. Some claim by controlling Prana (life force), one can control all the forces of the universe, gravity (this why some claim to levitate), magnetism, electricity and their own nerve currents.
John Weldon and Clifford Wilson wrote in Occult Shock and Psychic Forces that Yoga is really pure occultism. Hans-Urich Rieker, in his book The Yoga of Light, also warns that misunderstanding the true nature of Yoga can mean “death or insanity.” Also a little known fact is that virtually every major guru in India has issued warnings similar to these; i.e., deep breathing techniques such as the ones taught in Yoga are a time-honored method for entering altered states of consciousness and for developing so-called psychic power.”
Yoga is one of the basic means of reaching this altered state of consciousness. And the altered state is the doorway to the occult. Sir John Eccles, Nobel Prize Winner for his research on the brain, said the brain is “a
machine that a ghost can operate.' In a normal state of consciousness one's own spirit ticks off the neurons in his brain and operates his body. We are spirits connected with a body. But in an altered state, reached under drugs, Yoga, hypnosis, visualization, this passive but alert state, the connection between the spirit and the brain, is loosened. That allows another spirit to interpose itself, to begin to tick off the neurons in the brain, and create an entire universe of illusion. You've then opened yourself up to the spiritual realm which God forbids for us to enter. It's called sorcery. Those encouraged to use meditation, yoga, visualization, chakra energizing, Spirit guides could certainly take advantage of these open areas.
Unbeknown to many people they are literally teaching themselves how to be demonized, asking guiding spirits to help teach and relieve them of their stress. All in the name of stress reduction and developing one's full potential. The fact is that one practicing yoga, the asanas, are to be able to release themselves from the trappings of reincarnation by working off their karma.
Yoga is to help one neutralize their karma and find a way off the cycle of rebirth (reincarnation). How can this spiritual exercise by sanitized for Christian use. And for what reason would it be used? To relax! The Bible teaches God will “keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You.” (Isa. 26:3). One cannot make an excuse that they want to us it to experience peace and or the divine.
The poses that they so diligently practice in their stretching are named after Hindu Gods, and what one is actually doing, is calling on them. In that worshipful pose, they are bowing and for all intents and purposes worshipping that God. Our God says “You shall have no other Gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God.
As Christians who are in relationship with the God who created the universe, we should not be among those who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worship and serve created things rather than the Creator (Romans 1:25). While many Christians rationalize the exercises as neutral they only need to ask a professional Yoga instructor what it is really about to find that it is in fact religious. As a Christian we need to ask ourselves would Jesus or the apostles be doing yoga? If not why not. Would they promote another religions way to be united with a different gods? According to the Bible Yoga is an idolatrous practice which leads one away from the one true God and into the spiritual realm of false gods and demonic spirits, and there are consequences? If we sin ignorantly God understands, He is merciful, giving us grace on the one hand, but not to continue after we receive knowledge of the truth. On the other He cares of our sin, not willing to leave us to our deception. “My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge,” in In Hosea’s time people had a lack of knowledge concerning God, as a result, they turned to other gods, and their idolatrous practices became a snare to them and a delusion. they became the prey of false gods-even while thinking that their lifestyle was pleasing to God.
There is absolutely no problem in stretching exercises in and of themselves. What would be wrong is taking yoga positions assuming they are stretching exercises and non-religious, when in fact they are worshipful poses to Hindu gods. No one can deny that stretching helps the blood flow, nor that breathing in oxygen helps our overall health. There are numerous other ways unattached to a religion that can accomplish this. There are numerous exercise programs that incorporate stretching that in no way relates to yoga (and it worldview) that one can substitute. Religious syncretism is probably the most dangerous we can involve ourselves in because we can rationalize its purpose. From the Hindu viewpoint nothing is merely physical, because in Hinduism the physical is merely maya, an illusion, so when you practice yoga it is not a physical exercise for the body but a spiritual exercise. All exercise helps the blood flow and keeps us limber. Breathing in oxygen helps our overall health and vitality. All these can be pursued in other ways than having it attached to a religion that teaches to discover you are god.
Essentially one cannot practice a portion of Hinduism and continue to walk with the true Christ who is not a Hindu Guru.
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME.
machine that a ghost can operate.' In a normal state of consciousness one's own spirit ticks off the neurons in his brain and operates his body. We are spirits connected with a body. But in an altered state, reached under drugs, Yoga, hypnosis, visualization, this passive but alert state, the connection between the spirit and the brain, is loosened. That allows another spirit to interpose itself, to begin to tick off the neurons in the brain, and create an entire universe of illusion. You've then opened yourself up to the spiritual realm which God forbids for us to enter. It's called sorcery. Those encouraged to use meditation, yoga, visualization, chakra energizing, Spirit guides could certainly take advantage of these open areas.
Unbeknown to many people they are literally teaching themselves how to be demonized, asking guiding spirits to help teach and relieve them of their stress. All in the name of stress reduction and developing one's full potential. The fact is that one practicing yoga, the asanas, are to be able to release themselves from the trappings of reincarnation by working off their karma.
Yoga is to help one neutralize their karma and find a way off the cycle of rebirth (reincarnation). How can this spiritual exercise by sanitized for Christian use. And for what reason would it be used? To relax! The Bible teaches God will “keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You.” (Isa. 26:3). One cannot make an excuse that they want to us it to experience peace and or the divine.
The poses that they so diligently practice in their stretching are named after Hindu Gods, and what one is actually doing, is calling on them. In that worshipful pose, they are bowing and for all intents and purposes worshipping that God. Our God says “You shall have no other Gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God.
As Christians who are in relationship with the God who created the universe, we should not be among those who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worship and serve created things rather than the Creator (Romans 1:25). While many Christians rationalize the exercises as neutral they only need to ask a professional Yoga instructor what it is really about to find that it is in fact religious. As a Christian we need to ask ourselves would Jesus or the apostles be doing yoga? If not why not. Would they promote another religions way to be united with a different gods? According to the Bible Yoga is an idolatrous practice which leads one away from the one true God and into the spiritual realm of false gods and demonic spirits, and there are consequences? If we sin ignorantly God understands, He is merciful, giving us grace on the one hand, but not to continue after we receive knowledge of the truth. On the other He cares of our sin, not willing to leave us to our deception. “My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge,” in In Hosea’s time people had a lack of knowledge concerning God, as a result, they turned to other gods, and their idolatrous prac-
tices became a snare to them and a delusion. they became the prey of false gods-even while thinking that their lifestyle was pleasing to God.
There is absolutely no problem in stretching exercises in and of themselves. What would be wrong is taking yoga positions assuming they are stretching exercises and non-religious, when in fact they are worshipful poses to Hindu gods. No one can deny that stretching helps the blood flow, nor that breathing in oxygen helps our overall health. There are numerous other ways unattached to a religion that can accomplish this. There are numerous exercise programs that incorporate stretching that in no way relates to yoga (and it worldview) that one can substitute. Religious syncretism is probably the most dangerous we can involve ourselves in because we can rationalize its purpose. From the Hindu viewpoint nothing is merely physical, because in Hinduism the physical is merely maya, an illusion, so when you practice yoga it is not a physical exercise for the body but a spiritual exercise. All exercise helps the blood flow and keeps us limber. Breathing in oxygen helps our overall health and vitality. All these can be pursued in other ways than having it attached to a religion that teaches to discover you are god.
Essentially one cannot practice a portion of Hinduism and continue to walk with the true Christ who is not a Hindu Guru.
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME.
While I may not see the world in the same way as the Hindus, how can this practise be dangerous, especially for one who doesn't believe in it? It sounds like sexual ecstasy, the culmination of two people coming together and mastering the art of yoga... reminds me of the tantra philosophy, though I know very little of that, so don't quote me... The only danger in Hatha yoga has to do with physical ability. It stresses postures that some people may not be able to perform. I did yoga for a time but it was very slow movements and mostly focussed on relaxing the mind and body. Mine was a secular form and didn't emphasize any particular religion, so I missed out on the true essense of the art. Still, those were some of the most relaxing and enjoyable times for me and I'd gladly go back to it if I could find someone skilled in teaching the blind. I'm slightly familiar with chakras but don't know enough about them to be able to explain them in detail. I can't say, from a nonHindu perspective what exactly yoga does, but it is definitely a calming therapy with wonderful benefits to the body and the mind so long as the practitioner doesn't overdo it.
I've never played with altered states of consciousness. First, I don't believe in drugs to reach that state of being and second, it takes years of proper meditation and yoga to do it right. That said, since I wish to explore my psychic abilities, particularly in the realms of mediumship and divination, and since I value and love the spiritual realm, I can't see any harm in letting spirits influence me to some degree. The trick is to not allow them to directly enter you, except when you wish them to, such as in a seyance or automatic writing session. It's also important to never let an evil spirit near you. those can certainly be dangerous and I have no intention of meeting them if I can help it. Finally, the most important thing to remember, regardless of the type of contact with them, is to let the spirits know they can leave whenever they wish to do so. Otherwise, they may feel trapped and that can cause even the kindest of them to become upset, which is only natural.
As for what my religion teaches, there's nothing about this in our sacred texts to my knowledge, either forbidding or promoting it. Some, outside the mainstream, do mystical things but I have no clue about them other than knowing that they exist. to do it properly in a religious sense, it's probably best to call upon Hermes and to ask his guidance in spiritual affairs and there are more traditional means of divination than the ones which currently interest me.
So long as they're not harming others, what does it matter to you personally if people practise yoga or not? That is, unless you're just giving us this information to read on and to understand your religion better. Here's an interesting situation. Suppose that I attend a Christian service, either as a scholar or simply to accompany a friend. Am I worshipping your God? Keep in mint that I don't believe in Him and am going either for knowledge in a scholarly sense or to keep my friend company and be nice. If your answer is no, would it matter whether or not I joined in the rituals of the church, i.e. singing with the hymns, kneeling etc? While I'll admit that it is essentially different to practise yoga in a religious and in a secular sense, why can't someone, of any faith, practise it as a secular thing while being aware of it's origins? That is, they know what the exercises mean to Hindus, but they do it for clarity of mind and relation of body that are completely secular? why, if it must be religious, can't they use it and think of their own deities in the manner of their own choosing?
sounds like something from the camasutra
Is this a direct website for hinduism or everything?
I need links for my religion section for my website.
Tiffanitsa, if you have anything on the Greek polytheism that's not legends and stuff like we read in school, like a modern website or something or something similar...please send me a message.
If anyone has a few sites on bodism or hinduism, those would be great too. Those articles are interesting.
I think that if you believe in yourself and whatever deity you hold dear, good things can happen. I think this principle fits more with the Christian religion and possibly Judism. However as for the pantheon, I know that they weren't that concerned with mortals except as pawns in some scheme they were trying to work out between themselves, but mortals can gain the favor of a particular god or goddess. As for the gods dying to save a mortal; highly unlikely for the true gods as they can't, but it might be possible for one of the demigods.
Thanks
Chastity
Hi Chastity. Yes, I have a list of several sites, most having to do with modern worship of The Gods. I'd be more than willing to pass it onto you. Also, check out Wikipedia, Beliefnet and especially about.com for good starting points on the other religions. They may give you other ideas.
In Response to all the Religions
Why do Christians claim Jesus is God? Why do we ignore other teachers and teachings from other religions. Why do we say He is the only way and we cannot
accept that there are other ways to God? These are the questions most often asked about us.
When we look at other religions they are not just asking us to add on their teacher but to ignore Jesus, and give their leader equal or a greater prominence.
Jesus is then superceded by another, something no Christian would never do. Many leaders of these other religions often are opposed to what Jesus said
or they change His statements to make them suitable in their own religious framework. Jesus asked the people to follow him alone, not only for that time
and then look for another afterwards. Islam, Bahai, Mormonism [and others] all claim their prophet was to come with a new revelation in line with all the
prophets. But why should accept these men’s claims unless they have proof. If Jesus is God follow him, if Mohammed, Baha’u’llah, Buddha or Krishna is God
then follow him. Just about anyone can claim to be God and many have. Even in our modern times, there have been many but it is a whole other thing to prove
it. Only one came from heaven died and raised from the dead, and ascended back to where He came from. This becomes the eliminating factor that makes it
the Grand Canyon jump that no one can survive.
Some claim there are similarities to the moral ethical commands of Judaism/Christianity and other religions, such as in the teachings in Buddhism. This
can be agreed upon to a certain extent. However there is a historical and Biblical reason for this. Religion can instill moral values and improve ones
life temporarily but in the end it cannot affect our eternal state that continues after this life. The reason is that it does not have the solution to
mans disease, it does not have the cure.
Romans chapter1 teaches that we all had a common ancestry and had the knowledge of God in common until mankind left the truth and started to worship the
creation (paganism) instead of the creator of creation. From the time of Genesis God gave one man and woman together to be husband and wife and make a
family. There was harmony in the family. Man knew it was wrong to murder, steal and lie from the beginning.
Rom 1:19-25: “Because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although
they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing
to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals
and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged
the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.”
Romans 1:28-32: “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not
fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness;
they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy,
unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the
same but also approve of those who practice them.” Notice these are things that religions address, moral and ethical issues.
Also, we all have a conscience to instruct us in the basic guidance of what is right and wrong, he is like the umpire in certain respects. It is built into
us as instinct to know what to do and not to do certain things. For example no matter what continent someone is on they know its wrong to murder another
person. This would only change if a whole society or culture mandated a opposite philosophy as law which would go against ones conscience. The Bible also
teaches that God has put eternity in our hearts. Man knows what he sees in this lifetime is not all there is. This is why almost unanimously all religions
have a teaching on an afterlife, its built in knowledge there is an unseen afterlife. So we can trace many of the moral codes in the various religions
to a common source from mans beginnings. But then Christianity rises above all the rest of the worlds religions in that it explains these thing in truth
by the one who is the source of all things.
Even within the framework of Judaism and Christianity men like Moses and the prophets or Paul and Peter might have been replaced by other equally good men,
but it is not so with Christ. On this theme Charles Gore writes: “To recognize this truth is to be struck by the contrast which in this respect Christianity
presents to other-'religions. For example, the place which Mohammed holds in Islam is not the place which Jesus Christ holds in Christianity, but that
which Moses holds in Judaism. The Arabian prophet made for himself no claim other than that which Jewish prophets made, other than that which all prophets,
true or false, or partly true an partly false, have always made,--to speak the word of the Lord. The substance of Mohammedanism, considered as a religion,
lies simply in the message which the Koran contains. It is, as no other religion is, founded upon a book. The person of the Prophet has its significance
only so far as he is, supposed to have certificated the reality of the revelations which the book records.
Gautama, again, the founder of Buddhism, one, I suppose, of the noblest and greatest of mankind, is only the discoverer or rediscoverer of a method or way,
the way of salvation, by which is meant the way to win final emancipation from the weary chain of existence, and to attain Nirvana, or Parinirvana, the
final blessed extinction. Having found this way, after many years of weary searching, he can teach it to others, -but he is, all the time, only a preeminent
example of the success of his own method, one of a series of Buddha's or enlightened ones, who shed on other men the light of their superior knowledge....”
The men who inaugurated these religious systems did not remain as the fountain source of all that they proposed, they were all cut short by the enemy of
mankind, death. Nor do they remain as living executors of the order in the universe but have relinquished any control they had to another.
So many say I believe in Jesus, what they mean is they believe He existed and is a great teacher and a good man, but not that He is who Christians (and
the Bible) claim He said He is. How do we know that that He claimed He was God? The Bible says this. It is this same Bible that Jesus quoted from the Old
Testament about His teachings and Himself in prophecy.
If this is not true, then Jesus is neither a good man nor a true teacher. What other teacher do you know that said to make Jesus our Lord and follow Him
ONLY. Or claimed they created the universe and then had organic miracles to prove it. If we look at the three or four main religions it was NOT Mohammed,
Baha’u’llah, Krishna nor Buddha that claimed this,-- they couldn't. The Christian Gospel is not one truth among many “truths” that people nowadays can
choose from, like going to a smorgasbord and choosing what one will or will not eat. It is either all true or not true at all. Because it claims to be
all true and it is God who is watching over His word to preserve it.
Are you an
honest skeptic willing to look at the evidence? We welcome those who are pursuing truth. There is an immense difference between a dishonest and
honest skeptic. A dishonest skeptic will not believe even if they have the evidence, they will not call it evidence even if it is. It is then when the
religious person needs to check his own heart to see if they care for truth.
If you can't recognize your sin then you can't have Jesus as a savior and you will as He said “unless you believe I Am you will de in your sins.” Jesus
is the God of Moses that came only once in human flesh. This is the message of Christianity and it is what separates the wheat from the chaff of other
religious teachers. If Jesus is who he said He is, (which is by proof, no one else has any contrary.) Then if you don't listen to Him it becomes the ultimate
danger to ones soul. Religions are not all the same, like the example that all human are of the same species. No, not all religions lead to God. because
there is only one from God. The only thing we do all hold these things in common is our sinful nature. But the solution is not the same in all religions
that is offered to all. If it is only sin that needs to be given up for one to be pleasing to God or to go to heaven, than all we would need to do is give
up our bad habits, but it goes much deeper than this.
All religion's have in common man pleasing God by his own hands and deeds, they are trying to reach upward to God. Christianity teaches man is unable to
reach God, it took God himself to reach downward from heaven. He personally became a man to accomplish the solution for our dilemma which has always been
sin.
Spiritual sayings are not enough it has to be the eternal truth that never changes from the God who came last of all in the person of JESUS CHRIST the ONLY
TRUE GOD and savior. Christianity is summed up in the person of Christ. If you take Buddha out of Buddhism, Mohammed out of Islam…,Krishna out of Hinduism…,
Baha'u'lla out of Bahaism…you still have their teachings intact, they are all doing quite well without their originator and teacher not being alive today.
If you take Christ out of Christianity, if He didn’t rise you have nothing. All the religions “ point to' the graves of their leaders, no matter how brave
or how ingenious they are. They all lie there waiting for their day to stand before the God they wanted to know; only Christianity points to an empty tomb
and the promise to empty the graves by the one who rose first to live eternally.
None of these men were confirmed by the power of God, they are still dead, Jesus was resurrected and will judge the living and the dead.
John 3:19-21: “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were
evil. “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. “But he who does the truth comes
to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” How does one know whether they practice the truth or a lie? By coming
to the light (truth) found in Christ and the Bible.
Salvation is not by believing in God but by believing in
the gospel
To believe in God only makes us no longer an atheist. We are then a theist, but no one could have there sins forgiven by just believing in God. One must
believe in the God who became man and died for your sins to be washed away. It is an act of unprecedented love that is not seen in any other religion.
No other came from heaven and died for your sins while you rejected and hated Him. What Jesus did would be like you taking your worst enemy, someone who
did evil to you personally, out to the best dinner he ever had and treat him as family and give the very best you have.
1 Peter 3:15: "Sanctify the lord in your hearts and always be ready to give a defense. To everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you." Not
many people have hope and some have a false hope. All need hope but it needs to be true or its not real hope. As Christians were are asked to explain and
defend the truth of Christ and God. So if we do this, don’t be offended, we only want you to come into a relationship with the same God that we now know.
It is for no other reason than out of love and care for you as individuals. Because God cares so do we, Jesus Christ is still alive and changes hearts
and lives today as He did when He first came nearly 2,000 years ago.
Maybe your tire from all the religious activities, the rituals you do; all the do's and don'ts you have to obey to please God. Jesus offered - “Come to
Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and
you will find rest for your souls. “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matt 11:28-30)
Choosing My Religion
Of all the religions in the world and all the good that mankind has done in the name of these religions, there is only one person who stands out among the
others. There have been more sermons spoken and books written on Jesus of Nazareth than any other individual in history. He alone stands out among any
other religious teacher.
Now before I go into proving this, we can honestly say that each religions founder to the adherents of that religion believe their founder stands out.
That is the very reason they follow the religion's of their particular founder. It is attractive to them because they see some unique redeeming quality
in it, that they do not see somewhere else.
But being different and being a beacon to a certain culture at a certain time does not make the religion or its teacher possess the truth.
Today there are many “faiths” but the bible teaches there is only one faith, the one delivered to the saints once and for all. A recent poll taken found
that 67% of Americans believe there is no such thing as absolute truth. For many people, choosing which religious system to join does not involve considering
whether it is true. They choose what appeals to them, what works for them (pragmatism). In Omni magazine a number of years ago it stated it doesn’t matter
what you believe as long as it works for you. This has been embraced as the norm to know what is right and good. Unfortunately what works is no test for
truth as something can work and not be based on truth at all. Something is not made true because we believe it. Most people today choose a religious system
that appeals to their good nature, what they are comfortable with. If it works for them they are satisfied. If there is some self-improvement they can
work into their lives that will make them happy that’s is enough to justify it is right and from God.
Different religions may “work” for different people in some ways. When exercising our personal freedom of choice it cannot solve the issues of life, death,
or God without considering the real truth! There are major differences to be considered. Our choice will not be satisfied by similar substitutes that change
one’s present behavior and not their inner corrupt nature and their destination in the afterlife. God’s truth is from His nature and it is eternal it will
affect us in an eternal way. One can be satisfied with what they have arrived at not knowing that they would have struck gold if they would have kept on
digging.
With the option of various faiths one can pick their religion or spirituality that is conducive to their lifestyle they want to live by. They can choose
to believe in many Gods and become a Hindu. If monotheism and strict rituals appeals to them they can become Muslim. If they want to have an ethical way
to live and do good without having God in their life they can become a Buddhist or another religion that has ethics without God. In this world there are
many philosophies and religions all competing for
hearts. When one searches for the truth they need to be aware of many things that we are often not
attentive of. There has been TV shows and articles about people of all faiths praying for the sick and all seeing some results. Some did not know that
others were praying for them. This seems to imply that spirituality is all multi faceted and that it does not matter what one believes or prays to. Our
culture is very pragmatic in its approach accepting the premise if it has worked for someone it should be accepted as valid and true. One persons ceiling
becomes another person’s floor.
This is what I call the leaky bucket syndrome. As one pours water into a gallon bucket with a hole in it, the water slowly leaks out. Then they go and find
another bucket and pour the water into this bucket which they find has a hole in it and they go find a third bucket to pour the water into. But no matter
how many buckets you use to replace the first one the water still leaks out. The moral of the story is, if you start with the wrong premise, with an untruth,
it will always lose its attraction later on. It will always make less sense as one goes under the surface and finds the belief system they have held is
filled with holes. The bible teaches us there is only one foundation we can build on, that is Jesus Christ.
Mankind has a great imagination and a pursuit of knowing so developments of spiritual beliefs have surfaced. We are essentially spiritual beings because
we have a spirit in a body that yearns to contact God our maker. In this world we have a smorgasbord of spirituality where one can eat freely to satisfy
there hunger without knowing what they are eating. Before one fills themselves up on this spiritual food they need to see if the food they are ingesting
is as healthy as they first thought. Certainly any newcomer to spiritual matters can be overwhelmed with all the claims and choices.
So who is right? Are they all right as some claim, only a few or is there only one that is right? Ask people of ten religions and you will probably get
10 answers. So what makes Jesus and Christianity different? Jesus is unique. He came down from heaven to reach man. While all religions are trying to
reach up to God by the work of their own hands to please him. Instead God took the initiative and reached down to us. Why? Because we do not have the ability
to please Him on our own. “He said to them, You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world” (John 8:23).
So why is Jesus different? Some say if you ignore the doctrine one can find the same promotion of practices in all religions. Yes there may be a few commonalities.
This mostly comes from our living in a day of increased communication, and by these means our world has shrunk. This has led to more familiarity with the
religious beliefs of other people and with it has come more tolerance finding what we have in common and ignoring the differences. We can as Christians
respect people’s culture and choice but we do not have to agree with their religious system. Instead they need to hear the gospel and we are commanded
to give it to them. After all, the gospel is God’s message of love to the people of the earth.
This is what separates Jesus and His offer of a relationship to God which we now call Christianity from all the other teachers of religions. If we take
Buddha out of Buddhism it goes on. One can practice Buddhism divorced from its founder. If Krishna is removed from Hinduism the teachings and the techniques
continue. One can practice Islam without Mohammed being alive. But if we take Jesus out of Christianity it crumbles. Because this religion (if I may be
allowed to use the term), is based upon a person and His work done on the cross, not our work. Salvation rests on the person of Christ who must be alive
or it cannot be carried out. He alone has come back to life. There is no other religious teacher who started their religion that has died, and is alive
today. None. 2 Tim. 1:9-10 “Calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before
time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through
the gospel.” It was Jesus who died for everyone’s sins no other religious leader claims this.
If we look carefully there has never been another man or woman like Jesus. He never lied He only told the truth even when it offended people. He lied to
no one even when it meant saving His life. He lived a life completely free from bad influences having total integrity. If he ran for a political office
all the regular people who wanted an honest man would have voted for him. There was no one who could accuse him of any wrongdoing so they had to make up
lies. They lied about what He said throughout his ministry and they even lied about his being raised from the dead. People continue to lie about him and
the Bibles record even to the point of the ridiculous. One of the allegations is that the Bible was written a hundred years later after His death involving
no eyewitnesses. The records show that the writers claimed to be eyewitnesses.
He loved people more than anything in the world as He came to die so even his enemies can be forgiven. His life was an open book to all who wanted to know
Him. He did nothing in secret. He was approachable by all willing to listen and to give perfect wisdom in every situation. Jesus did not “borrow” His teachings
from anyone. His source was from God, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine,
whether it was from God or whether I speak of My own authority” (John 7:16,17).
His compassion was evident to all. He ate with the outcasts and undesirables of society. “And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him saying, ‘Lord, if You
are willing, You can make me clean.’ Then Jesus put out His hand and touched Him saying, ‘I am willing; be cleansed.’ And immediately his leprosy was cleansed”
(Matthew 8:2,3). While the Religious leaders of the day scorned certain groups of people especially those who were not Pharisees, He instead sat and talked
and ate with them. He let them know they were loved and not rejected by God. He had compassion on those rejected by the religious society and was for the
underdog. He lifted up those who were in despair and humbled those who elevated themselves. As Peter His disciple later writes “Therefore humble yourselves
under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you” (1 Peter 5:6,7).
He gave us the highest standard of human morality and showed power to the helpless beyond any normal human ability. His abilities were supernatural as He
was able to see into people’s hearts and know what they were thinking. He was able to heal with a word, not needing to be present. There has never been
another like him before or afterwards. He affected our history in such a manner that we count our dating from the time he was born. There is hardly a religion
that does not recognize Him today.
In 1970 years He has changed millions of lives for the better and still answers those who call upon him. No one can ever find a bad thing about him. They
might find fault with the Church but they couldn’t with Jesus when He was alive, and cannot still today. Yet people ignore him and find others to esteem
above him or just don’t believe a word He said that is recorded in the NT. So why do many people refuse His ability to have compassion and love them? Why
do they hate him? Why do they oppose him? When He said He is the only way, truth and life for all people? With people always appealing to tolerance, why
are they not tolerant to Jesus? The reason is because His statements of exclusiveness are
disturbing.
Because He gives an absolute standard of truth. In a world where people are led by there feelings people become offended. He taught that we are not good
in ourselves. So they look at His teachings as negative, as He addresses fallen mankind as sinners. “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and
he who does not believe in the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” (John 3:36). “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory
of God” (Romans 3:23). But until one can comes to the realization that this is their state without Christ He can’t set them free.
If all the other religions are equally valid ways to God, then the Christian claim of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross as the one and only way would be impossible.
It would be not just one of the many ways but the only wrong way. If we could work out our own salvation by our good deeds, religious rituals, and practices
as each religion requires, God did not have to bring the solution for our sins by crucifixion. It would have been the only absolutely wrong thing to do!
If Jesus did not rise from the dead as He claimed then His claims and His followers are audacious, preposterous and they would be the greatest group of
deceivers of all time. He would not be a good teacher to be listened to but should be rejected, despite all the other wonderful things that was said and
done to better mankind. It either is truth and should be held onto like our being in a life raft alone in the middle of the sea or not a word should go
into our ears. John Warwick Montgomery a respected theologian writes that: Christianity’s truth claim consists merely of a finger pointing back through
time to an historical figure who divided world history into two parts—to Jesus of Nazareth—to His statements concerning Himself and true religion, and
to the life He led attesting to the statements He made. An honest, historically accurate, scientific investigation of these data (involving chiefly a study
of the documents collected in the New Testament) will show that Jesus claimed to be God Incarnate, that He described the only true (but not the only possible)
religion consisting of fellowship with Himself, and that He attested His claims by a sinless life which profoundly affected everyone who crossed His path,
and by a resurrection which left no doubt in the minds of eyewitnesses that He was in fact the true God (John W. Montgomery, The Shape of The Past: An
Introduction to Philosophical Historiography, vol. 1, p. 328 1962).
No other religious teacher laid down their life for their followers like this and they certainly did not for those who opposed them and were enemies. “For
when we were without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone
would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:6-8).
To disbelieve in the historical recoded documents that we have today one must disregard our entire knowledge of Greco Roman history. Because our knowledge
of these cultures and the past depends upon documentation that is far less adequate and evidential than the evidence we have for Jesus and the Bible.
Bible Scholar F. F. Bruce stated, “The historical ‘once-for-all-ness’ of Christianity which distinguishes it from those religious and philosophical systems,
which are not specially related to any particular time, makes the reliability of the writings which purport to record this revelation a question of first-rate
importance” (The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? p. 8).
Jesus made it clear that we must choose when we hear. We are either for him or against him. There is no neutral ground, for to make no choice is a choice
in itself. Christianity is either true reality or a figment of people’s imagination. If not the truth it is then no more or less then the other religions,
it is one option to choose among the others.
It is one thing to say God gave me a message. It is a whole other thing to say I am God and here is the message. Those who walked with Jesus were very careful
to write down what they heard as eyewitnesses. Why believe and follow something that is not true. Peter writes “For we did not follow cunningly devised
fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father
honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which
came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.” (2 Pet .1:16-18) Peter is referring to the transfiguration as they were able to see Jesus
for who he really is. As He hid himself from the people’s eyes but revealed it to his three closest followers on the mountaintop. Peter later died for
believing in Christ.
Another one of the witnesses was John who later wrote in his first epistle, “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen
with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear
witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--that which we have seen and heard we declare to you,
that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you
that your joy may be full” (I Jn.1:1-4). Christianity gives people the truth which in turn gives them an unfading happiness through life. Not a happiness
that is dependent on circumstanced but a inner joy that can be constant.
The apostle Paul who was an adamant enemy of Christianity was on his way to his next extermination of Christians when he was convinced by an experience
with Jesus. “I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual
grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the
giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came who is over all, the
eternally blessed God. Amen” (Romans 9:1-5).
People often ask the question “Can you prove Christianity is true?” “Have you seen God? In answering these questions- no I have not seen God physically
but I have seen his touch on my life and numerous others to know it is real. After one comes into a relationship with Him they know the difference of before
and after. There is a transforming power that is given to the recipient by faith. Christianity can be proven to be true because it rests on the claims
of Christ. But the question that needs to be asked back is “will the person accept it if there is sufficient evidence.” Some do and some don’t despite
the evidence that is presented.
In Heb.11:3 the word of God states that what we see is made by things we do not see, invisible things. In 1896 Roshen who began atomic physics discovered
the X- ray and in 1923 began to discover through the electronic microscope that atoms were made of tiny particles of energy and out of these sub atomic
particles are what all things were made of. Now what holds these atoms together? The nucleus of an atom are so changed that they should repel each other.
There is some invisible force that holds it together. We cannot see this but reality and our experience tells us this is true. In Heb.1:3 it tells us
Christ the architect of the universe holds all things together by the word of His power. Col.1:17 tells us “in Christ” all things consist and are held
together. How is this possible that thousands of years be-
fore science discovered the laws and the mechanics to prove the things that could not be seen
by the eye, the bible specifically describes. Science when it is truly scientific verifies the bible. So we are without excuse and have more knowledge
then necessary to believe in our day and age.
It’s not that we don’t know God exists for we do. For the prophet Isaiah writes Isa.64:4 “For since the beginning of the world men have not heard nor perceived
by the ear, nor has the eye seen any God besides You, who acts for the one who waits for Him.” Over 700 years later the apostle Paul in the New Testament
writes. Rom.1:20 “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, (not hidden) being understood by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful,
but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible
God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.” This where the other religions were birthed from
refusing the correct knowledge of God that was once universally known. We now have the God of Eastern thought as impersonal, God is everything and everything
is God. This is now the new age concept of God as life force within all of creation. The Bible presents God as independent from His creation, the God of
the Bible is personal and relational. Christianity believes and teaches that the Bible alone is the revealed Word of God. Even though it was written by
men, the source of the authorship is God. This claim was not invented by the Church, but is the claim the Bible makes for itself. Men of God’s own choosing
recorded the words that were heard from Him.
Christianity claims a moral certainty, to anyone who is willing to take the evidence and evaluate it in light of its historicity, prophecy and manuscripts.
Christianity claims an external verification through evidence, as well as an internal witness through God. To those looking in from outside the Christian
faith, they can be shown a great amount of evidence for its truth claims. But when a person becomes a Christian, the assurance of truth becomes reality.
But this takes a step of faith to reach this point. This is not a blind faith but an evidential faith. We need to understand that there is no 100% evidence
provided for the seeker. Despite less than 100% evidence it will not stop someone from coming to an accurate and appropriate conclusion. Faith is necessary
to know God because God is invisible and He is infinite. We as creatures have been given a certain amount of proof to know He exists and what we need to
know Him. This faith is much like a small child in the home of loving parent’s. When the child is hungry he or she knows (trusts) the parents provision
for them, that they will not go hungry. The parents are watching out for the child because of a relationship of love. So although the child does not have
the evidence that everyday the parents will feed him or her, the child trusts the parents. So 100% evidence is not necessary for one to come to God. Needless
to say we find that people don’t apply the standard of 100% certainty to anything else for if they did- nothing would happen. No one makes decisions on
100% certainties for anything. To do so one would have to wait great lengths of time to make any move. When we buy something we are trusting that manufacturer
that it will work like they say. When we drive on the road we are trusting the other drivers to obey the laws. There is no one that possesses 100% certainty
for anything because we do not have perfect knowledge. God knows this and this is why He asks for us to exercise faith. Faith is trust and in this we can
become certain, and have the assurance what He said is true. Only a portion of evidence is necessary to believe in the truth. It’s like being in a house
with the lights out and the shades closed in the middle of a sunny day. Someone can come over and tell us to go outside to experience a beautiful day.
We can stay in the dark and say I don’t believe its light or we can trust that person’s report and just walk outside. Or we can ask for some evidence by
looking out the window. Looking out the window we have enough evidence that it is sunny like they say, but we are not experiencing it. If we go outside
we can find the report true, it is a beautiful day. We can feel the sun on us and the breeze blowing. Faith without any action is not faith. After faith
is exercised the complete evidence of it will be there. We then know what we believe.
Moses 1500 years before Christ came into the world incorporated the first five books of the bible. Then there are the words of the prophets that spoke throughout
the nation Israel’s history. Because they turned their back on the Lord He sent them men calling them to repent and believe. They also spoke of a future
redeemer through Israel that would bring reconciliation to the whole world. Heb.1 tells us that God does not use prophets any longer to deliver His scripture
to his people but it is by the ultimate message bearer, Jesus the Son of God. So the eyewitnesses of Jesus wrote down His words as the final revelation
to man. It was climatic and final because it was God who became a man this time. He didn’t send ANOTHER PROPHET BUT CAME HIMSELF. He said He was sent directly
from heaven. So when someone refuses the New Testament record they are rejecting God almost face to face. “But Isaiah is very bold and says: “I was found
by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me” (Rom. 10:20). No seeks God on their own but it is He who is seeking
us. Have you been sought? Has He come to you in ways only you would personally know?
It’s not often a matter of evidence needed to believe but resistance to the truth of God keeps us in unbelief. It is something we all have in our own fallen
nature, as the Scripture says the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. As Jesus spoke to Nicodemus He said in John 3:16-21: “For
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send
His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not
believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has
come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not
come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been
done in God.” It’s about dealing with our sin nature of which no other religious system has an answer for.
The light spoken of here is synonymous with God and His word, as both are called light. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. The gospel is so
simple that it disturbs those who consider themselves intelligent and important people of the world.
Are you looking for reasons to believe? Are you an honest seeker of the truth? Are you looking for reasons to disbelieve? Prov.8:17: “I love those who
love me, and those who seek me diligently will find me.” You may not have enough information to satisfy you about Jesus, but are you open enough, willing
to hear and to gain understanding. Has He drawn you so that you now want to know Him?
The problem is not a matter of “I can’t believe because the facts have not been presented” but it is more like “No matter what proof you present, I won’t
accept it.” If
anyone is truly interested in evaluating the evidence for proof of Christianity’s truth understand that God , the God has something wonderful
for your life “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then
you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.” (Jer.
29:11-13) God’s will is for a person to believe and repent. As it is written God is not willing for any to perish but that all will come to repentance.
We have the ability to do so but it becomes a matter of choice. God has done all to prove His love for us by sending His Son to earth to be rejected by
those He loved and cared for. To die an excruciating death, humiliated before the people He came to forgive yet He did not retaliate. He continues to hold
out open arms to anyone who will come to him and will close them around those who come to the cross for forgiveness of their sins.
NOW, if ANYONE can PERFECTLY-SUBSTANTIATINGLY PROOVE ANY/ALL of what I've posted from www.letusreason.org SO far, as ABSOLUTELY NO MORE than a DEFINITE HOAX, which would ALSO include ANY/ALL OTHER ARTICLES from that VERY SAME SITE that I DIDN'T post, as of YET, may ALL "LET US REASON MINISTRIES" ARTICLES be the VERY ABSOLUTE LIE of ALL LIES, INCLUDING GOD, HIMSELF!
You make very good points about proving. For me, it's a matter of faith, not proving. But since you wish to follow that line, what proof can you honestly give me that your god is the only god. Please do not use the Bible and claim that it came from Him. I want outside proof, roman or other accounts of Jesus, other cultures claiming to have had contact with your particular deity. You talk about religion as if Christianity was a separate entity. Christianity may be different from other faiths but it's still a religion. No one is perfect, especially mortals. People will always have their good and bad traits, including those brought up in Christian households and surrounded by Christians. Look at those Catholic priests who abused children. Are all Catholics like this? Of course not. But these men used their power and innocent people's beliefs to harm. There are cultures, nonChristian ones, in which crime does not exist, cultures that work and live together in harmony. Most of these are nomadic hunters and gatherers, some are pastoral (shephurds) and some are horticultural (planting things but not to the degree of agriculture). It's when you break away from that hunter-gatherer mentality, the thing that says people must stick together and use the land and the animals, and when you start seeing civilisations that these problems occur. If one has no posessions and lives in a tightly knit community with no bad influences from the outside, the risk of harm, jealousy etc decreases dramatically because they don't have the same mechanisms that drive large societies. Even if a hunter brings home a big kill or a gather finds the ripest fruit it's not their's. It's for the community, the family or however they view the people around them. I'm not saying we should all live like that, but people who do have less evils within their world. Conscience, like everything is taught. So if, for example, someone was raised in a culture where murder was the norm, they wouldn't think it was necessarily a bad thing. This is especially true if false reasons were given to make it seem normal. However, you're right. Most cultures don't condone it. It's one of a very small handful of universal taboos, one of the others being incest. Again, you're assuming that the Christian version of the afterlife is true. In all my interest in the paranormal, I've yet to hear of any spirits who truly describe the afterlife. Again, I'm not referring to religious texts but to secular sources. If Jesus wasn't what the Christians thought him to be, why could he still not be a good man and a teacher? There are many good men and teachers who aren't divine yet who preech the word of your god. How could these other cultures tell anyone to worship Jesus when they hadn't heard of him or the god whom he represented? And if God was the only true deity then why do so many religions exist? Why is it that so many Christians feel it necessary not only to teach and to explain but also to force, at times violently, people and whole cultures to join their faith. When your book told you not to murder, lie and steal, did they forget to mention not to destroy entire civilisations, rape their priests and priestesses, set fire to their temples, steal their sacred works to turn into Christian myths, and force their survivers to either join Christianity or die. did they forget to mention that witch trials, persecutions, crusades and inquisitions were bad things? Seriously, since most Christians are passed that today, I'd love to hear an explanation for them. Continued.
You're definitely right about all religions not being the same. For one, we don't believe in sin in mine nor do we go around saying that people who don't follow The gods will go to Tartaros. If God is supposed to be loving and caring, merciful and good, how is it that he can damn people simply for not believing in him? If, as you say, he's our father, what kind of father would hate his own children simply for making decisions that he judges to be wrong. You say that God is perfect and that He made us humans in His image. If that's true than either he's imperfect or he deliniated from his original design cause we're not and we make mistakes. If he made us, surely he must know that we'll make mistakes, so how can he hate us? If you take the Bible writers out of the Bible, you wouldn't have Christianity today. More to the point, if you take out the council which chose which books to eliminate from the main kanon and which to use, you'd have a very different form of Christianity. Have you ever read the early history of your religion or the books that aren't in The Bible, such as the apokrifa and the Gnostic texts. Why are these ignored? Why is this knowledge being suppressed from the average Christian? The only reason Jesus died is because the Jews and The Romans killed him and the only reason Christianity became what it is today is because of murder, deceipt etc and because the Romans chose to make it their main religion and they had all the power at that time. Had they not done so or had the Christians remained peaceful, we could all have co-existed nicely. I see no harm in choosing what religion works for you, so long as you truly believe in it. If, on the other hand, you choose something simply to believe in something, follow ritual just to be doing so or claim a path just cause you want to be cool, that's an entirely different story. But if you feel in your heart and your soul that this is true and it harms no one, go for it. There is no absolute proof of it, except in your heart and in your soul anyway. Continued.
If you look at things strictly from a scholarly point of view, all religions have holes. All are imperfect and even if there was the ultimate one, some person will always find a way to poke a hole in it or to be dissatisfied with it. There's a story of a woman who loved Zeus very much and he loved her. He promised her that he'd give her anything she chose in the world. Hera, Zeus's wife, was jealous of this and convinced the woman to ask Zeus to show himself to her as he did to his wife. Forced by his promise to keep his word, Zeus reluctantly did so and the woman promptly died. The moral here is that The Gods are far too incomprehensible to the mortal mind. No one could handle the true essense of the divine. Even your god sent his son down as a man, not in his full glory as a god. So if we can't truly tell the nature of the divine, why does it matter to whom we pray so long as we do so with love in our hearts? Christianity is not so unique in that sense. The Gods in Hellenic Polytheism come down all the time. True, they haven't been documented as being seen in any official sources since ancient times, but they're always around us. I know several people who've had experiences in modern tmes with them, and though this would be thrown out as a modern argument, it's worth mentioning for the fact that some of us still feel their presence. Also, as I've said, they can take many forms. So who knows where they are or what they're doing? If your god loves you unconditionally, why is it necessary to please Him? I don't mean from the kindness of your hearts but in general? And, since He's a loving god, why can he not accept your gifts or offerings of whatever as love and thanks? the idea of Christians not having to agree with other belief systems makes perfect sense. It even makes sense, if someone wishes to hear it and only then, that you share the ideas of your faith. But saying that instead, we "need" to hear about your faith is ridiculous. If I don't force my views on you why should you do it to me? If Jesus was free of bad things can you explain the incident with his friend that he killed out of anger when he was five years old? What about going and destroying the temple? That's vandalism not to mention rude and obnoxious. The records could show anything. But the Romans kept very good accounts of their people. If this Jesus was so amazing, popular and famous, why didn't they write about him? And if these writers of The Bible were eye witnesses, why are there so many discrepancies in the different books? If the life of Jesus was an open book, where was he from 12 to 30 years of age? He didn't affect our history, the people who choose to follow Christianity and then to change the calendar did that. Yes, it's based on Him but again, without those Bible writers, no one would no anything. Continued.
In the OT, God is seen as an angry vengeful god. But in the NT, he's seen as merciful and loving. Do you mean to tell me that because two people, supposedly the very first humans whoever lived, took some fruit, he's holding it against all of humanity? A person cannot be good or bad unless he/she is taught by his/her society to be so. There are feril children, wild children who act as the animals in the forest cause that's who raised them. They have no concept of good or evil. There have been children found who were tied up and lived their existance in one room. How can these children possibly be bad when they've had no contact with the human world? What about babies who die soon after birth? Surely, they're not evil. I totally agree that this was the absolutely wrong thing to do unless Jesus was a madman or power hungry. Martyrs do get alot of attention. And from what must we be saved? I've never got this whole talk of salvation. Now, suppose that Jesus did live and was an average but very psychically gifted man. If his followers then concocted a story of his reserection from the dead, that's not his fault. He was still a good man and a good teacher. However, if they lied about that, which I believe they did, then anything else that they said must also be taken into question. The problem with studying The Bible, as I've said, is that it's a biased source. There may indeed be other sources, if they exist, which are biased, but they will at least prove the existance of Jesus and his work. Please, by all means, tell mw about this historical recorded evidence. We have far more evidence for Greko-roman civilisation than we do for the existance of Jesus. I'm not referring to Hellenic Polytheism or to Religio Romana but to the civilisations themselves. Not only do these come from Greek and Roman sources but from the writings of several other cultures as well. Plus, we have archaeological evidence, documents, monuments and other very obvious signs of the existance of these cultures. Other them books, what evidence exists to prove that Jesus was here? So If witnesses are as important as Christians claim, then suppose someone from another religion were to write of speaking with and seeing their gods. Further suppose they wrote that their gods told them to write this. What makes that so different from what the followers of Jesus did? Continued.
Well, I haven't seen my Gods physically but I've felt Their touch upon my life and several of the lives of my friends. I also know the before and the after. So what makes our experiences less real or worthy than those of christians? The ancient Greeks and romans also described things that took thousands of years to be discovered by science. The Mayans had a calendar that was so accurate that it was better than the one's used today. The Sumarians, before everyone, had indoor plumbing. So many things were done first by the ancients and then rediscovered. Part of the reason for that was because of the Christian belief that people should be content with everything and shouldn't study any form of science because it was evil. What person today, including Christians, would say that bathing is bad? Well, in midieval times, Christians forbad it because they felt it arroused the senses and invited the devil. If science varifies the Bible why are so many Christians against evolution? I personally am not seeking 100% evidence. But so far, aside from the religious quotes in this article, which I've said numerous times I discount, I haven't even seen 1% evidence of the truth as you call it. The child in the example has interacted with the parents. He/she has been given food and is using his/her reasoning to figure out that food will be there tomorrow. But how can a nonbeliever, who's never experienced a deity, start beliving in him/her based on words alone? I could give you the sacred texts of my religion, could tell you of my experiences and could even put you in contact with other followers from general ones to priests. Yet if you don't experience The Gods for yourself or if you're not moved, I can't possibly convince you through these methods. First, prove to me, through the Romans themselves, that this man existed. Then, prove, either through them or another completely outside source, that He did all the things they say. Only then will I consider your argument. In the meantime, here's mine. Look up the emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus aka Emperor Julian. Now there was a man who should be worshipped as a hero and as a saviour of truth and justice. Granted, I may not agree with all his views and he was a mortal, so far as anyone knows, but his efforts were noble and we lost him far too soon.
If you look at this from a scientific point of view, there is lots of evidence coming to light now that shows how the poeple back then lived, new facts about Jesus and his life and even the people around him including his mother and the other Mary. There have been many shows on the history channel and the discovery channel on this. We put Jesus' birth at Christmas time, but that isn't true. Actually, this was mainly done by the early church to get people who worshiped the roman and celtic gods to stop the winter solstice festival. Jesus was more likely born in the spring for what shepherd watches their sheep in the dead of winter. Plus in other shows I've seen it tells how Jesus might've been just an ordinary child with temper tantrums and that when we don't hear about him for years, he may have made a trip to India because of a lot of his teachings are similar to Budist teachings. You can find all this by going to the
historychannel.com
or
discoverychannel.com
I hope I got those right. All the shows are for sale there and are proven by leading scientists, many of whom I have heard of through some research I have done.
Also Muslims believe in Jesus, but not at the son of God, but another prophet.
All religions are different slightly and imperfect so if we're supposed to be in God's image, ethen God is imperfect too for we make mistakes and do bad things. But, it also says we're given free will and if that's the case then God should accept that humans are imperfect and make mistakes.
All religions have tried to destroy other religions, Rome took over Greece, the Celtic gods were stamped out by the new Christian faith that killed the priests and priestesses burnt the sacred groves tore down shrines. Then, you had the crusades in which Christians tried to eliminate anyone from from the Jeruselem that wasn't a believer in Christ. Then, the inquisition where people were tortured until they would say anything or accuse their neighbors just to put an end to the pain. Same with the witch trials all started on the word of a little girl and that part is fact.
The hunter gatherer societies have a harder life than we do, but a more free life of sin and conflict. Everything must be done for the good of the community and they give thanks to the plants and animals they use for food so that they have a good next year.
God seems to be the only for the Christians and for the more crazy ones, Christianity is the only religion and if others don't believe in God or Jesus, then they should be forced to believe.
I never got to much into the Bible thing, but if I remember right there are commandments in the old testament about not killing or not coveting what someone else has or telling lies about other people. Somewhere along the line, the Roman Catholic faith that started it all forgot that. Jesus even preached these things and still people forget.
Besides, the Bible itself was written way after Jesus's death and it was the counsel that chose the books it wanted to make up the Bible, the ones it felt would portray women as sinners and put the best light on Jesus and his followers. However, there have been books found that should have been included and they are the Gnostic texts some written by Mary Magdelin herself, Judas, and others.
You can read some of these. The NLS has a couple of books on them, who discovered them, where, and what they said and why they weren't included in the regular Bible. Personally, I prefer the old testament, more interesting and more action, like reading regular stories..
Chastity
Thanks Chastity. That was a beautiful summary of all that I wrote. *smile* I'd also add to check
http://www.youtube.com
for some of these shows as I'm sure they have them. Rome only destroyed the Hellenic religion when they became Christian. True, they took alot from us but they also admired us grately and pretty much let us alone. They really didn't care how people worshipped so long as they gave money to the empire. I'm actually interested in these gnostic and other texts myself. There was a time when those people, who also believed in Jesus, were persecuted too. So it wasn't just pagans. Christians were killing their own. I wonder what The church would do if Jesus came back and had a talk with them about their past and current "sins"?
Well, if Jesus came back today, the church probably wouldn't believe he was who he said he was and throw him in jail, a mental institution, or secretly have him killed as they have done in the past with others they didn't like that didn't agree with them. They pretty much destroyed the Templars who were supposed to be warrios for the church and the church was afraid of the power the Templars were getting. Anything that theatens the mainly the Catholic church is bad and therefore a sin or devil worshipers as I understand it. No, I'm not Catholic. My mom's family was but then she left because they wouldn't baptize me since she was single and I was adopted from a mother who had sex before marriage. Lots of crazy rules.
Anyway, you can find shows and scientific text about the Templars, the Gnostic gospels, the secret Opus Day which is a real society, Free Masons, Mary Magdelin, black friars and more by doing searches on google, yahoo, bing, u-tube, and others. This is all scientifically proven that yes there was a Jesus and he was a prophet and he did wander around preaching, but some of the other stuff is filled in by the people that wrote the accepted books of the Bible to recruit people to the faith. Most of the writers, they put the date as, wrote those accepted books about 100 years after Jesus died.
I love ancient history. It's one of my passions and not just religious stuff but the battles and everything.
Oh, sorry about the Rome thing. That's right they did sort of absorb Greece into the culture and as far as I can tell the gods are the same pretty much accept with different names.
I've got the book numbers from NLS on those lost gospels if you want them.
Let me know, I think they're all on cassette.
I hope they get that new digital player out soon.
Chastity
Just as YOU, I, or ANYONE, at BEST, can never DISPROOVE what's ALREADY PROOVEN, NEITHER can I PROOVE such, as you've demanded, REGARDLESS of how ANY of us, either COULD or WOULD DENY it. The ABSOLUTE BOTTOM LINE is that EVEN GOD, HIMSELF, in ALL of HIS DEITY, HAS NEVER, STILL NEVER, and WILL NEVER, CONDEMNED/CONDEMNS/CONDEMN ANYONE to HELL, except for ONE-AND-ONLY SATAN, formerly LUCIFER, along with (is it "A THIRD?") of the angels, who participated in the VERY REBELLION that caused their ETERNAL EXPULTION from HEAVEN, in the FIRST place--and you KNOW, this DEFINITELY raises the very question, NOT ONLY with ME, I'm sure, but with ANYONE--why DID Lucifer go THAT FAR, to be SO "INTELLIGENTLY STUPID," when HE, above ALL the REST of the ENTIRE ANGELIC COMMUNITY of HEAVEN, couldn't EVER POSSIBLY WANT for MORE, BECAUSE HE HAD IT ALL--ALL that GOD, HIMSELF, which, of WHOM, there's NEVER ANY END to how MUCH that HE CAN and DOES give, DID GIVE HIM, which could NEVER BE HUMANLY IMAGINED. LUCIFER was known as "THE ANGEL of LIGHT," who THEN, was the (am I writing/spelling "ARK ANGEL" correctly?), who was placed as the "TOP BOSS." THIS, however, JUST WASN'T ENOUGH for Lucifer--HE wanted TOO MUCH, when he wanted to ACTUALLY "BE GOD," by DARINGLY ATTEMPTING, along with the ONE-THIRD-ANGELIC POPULATION, to OVERTHROW GOD, and as a result of THAT, they were LITTERALLY "BUTT-KICKED" RIGHT SMACK-DAB OUT OF HEAVEN, to fall DOWN to EARTH, to await their DESERVED PUNISHMENT--OH--it was THEN that LUCIFER'S name was INSTANTLY CHANGED to "SATAN," which I HEARD, but FORGOT what the meaning of it IS, and the THIRD of the angels that fell WITH him, became known as either (self-explanatorily) "FALLEN ANGELS," or "DEMONS."
Now, let me HOPEFULLY WARN you to NOT BANK on JUST MY EXPLANATION of the "LUCIFER/SATAN" issue, because I'm DEFINITELY SURE that there's MUCH, MUCH, MORE DEPTH--PERHAPS ENDLESS--that HOPEFULLY www.letusreason.org, www.gotquestions.org, and/or ANY OTHER CHRIST-CENTERED SITE might've revealed--as a matter of WHATEVER, I'll go to either/or of the above-mentioned sites RIGHT NOW--be left front (right back).
I have the SNEAKY SUSPICION that I might've ALREADY POSTED a copy of what I'm about to post HERE, in ANOTHER post of mine, of some OTHER topic, but OK, so be THAT--ANYWAY, this might be the START of MORE, and HOPEFULLY-COMPLETE DEPTH to the ABOVE, and I'll search for HOPEFULLY, as WELL, EVEN DEEPER EXPLANATION.
Question: "Did God create evil?"
Answer: At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity.
You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something
else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of
the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides
good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things
we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.
Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does
not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is
the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.
God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of
obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility
of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.
As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (
Romans 11:33-34).
Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God
looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing
that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where
we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is
holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship
Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own
will.--www.gotquestions.org
Try going to:
http://www.religioustolerance.org
or maybe its a .com
can't remember
Ecumenism
The uniting of Christian denominations and world religions by dropping their differences for the sake of unity.
The Thoughts of men and the Words of God
Man by intellect alone cannot know or understand God His infinite creator. So God communicated with man to reveal himself. John explains in the beginning
of his gospel Jn.1 the light came into the world and the darkness did not comprehend it. Jesus further states John 3:19-21 “this is the condemnation, that
the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light
and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen,
that they have been done in God."
What is this light? Jesus- John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." “in Him was
life, and the life was the light of men- John 1:4. He is the “true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world”- John 1:9
Darkness goes to darkness for instruction because their deeds are evil and they do not want to be known.
1 Kings 4:29-30 “and God gave Solomon wisdom and exceedingly great understanding, and largeness of heart like the sand on the seashore. Thus Solomon's wisdom
excelled the wisdom of all the men of the East and all the wisdom of Egypt.” He was wiser than all men-- and his fame was in all the surrounding nations.
1 Kings 4:34-5:1 “And men of all nations, from all the kings of the earth who had heard of his wisdom , came to hear the wisdom of Solomon.”
Today, few listen to the words of Solomon that are written, nor do they listen to the words of one greater than Solomon: “And indeed a greater than Solomon
is here”(Matthew 12:42), whose words are life (Jn.6:63).
Wisdom is hard to come by in these days of darkness, as we watch the curtain coming down. But there are certain timeless truths –“Wisdom is the principal
thing; Therefore get wisdom” (Proverbs 4:7).
Proverbs 14:6-9: “A scoffer seeks wisdom and does not find it, But knowledge is easy to him who understands.
Go from the presence of a foolish man, When you do not perceive in him the lips of knowledge. The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way, But the
folly of fools is deceit. Fools mock at sin, But among the upright there is favor.”
Wisdom means you make the right decisions on matters of truth or morality by the standard- The Word of God.
Colossians 1:9-10 tells us to be ‘filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding.” Without His wisdom we do not have spiritual
understanding, we are unable to Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time (Colossians 4:5).
Proverbs 12:1-3 “Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid. A good man obtains favor from the LORD, But a man of
wicked intentions He will condemn. A man is not established by wickedness, But the root of the righteous cannot be moved.”
How do we tell who is righteous? When they are shown that they are wrong by the word of God they will turn from their error and thank the one who saved
them from self -destruction.
Jeremiah knew his place and knew new peoples reaction 15:17: “And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O
LORD God of hosts. I did not sit in the assembly of the mockers” Jeremiah 8:9 “The wise men are ashamed, They are dismayed and taken. Behold, they have
rejected the word of the LORD; So what wisdom do they have?” Without embracing God’s word they were lost in Jeremiah’s day and so are we today.
Its time to face facts on what is taking place and make up your mind on what side you stand on and where you will give your loyalty. We have need to evaluate
what is taking place by prophecy in the word of God for there are those who do not treat the word as the truth, they instead use human reasoning as their
final authority for judgment.
1 Corinthians 2:1-7 “And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For
I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech
and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom , but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the
wisdom of men but in the power of God. However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.”
A widening of the way is purposely being introduced in the church to unite her with other religions. It may not be the intentions of all the peoples hearts
involved but certainly some. They are being influenced by something greater than themselves. The underlying support for this new era of tolerance and unity
is humanism. If we could just concentrate on our actions and goals instead of our beliefs, we can have a unity that would be beneficial worldwide.
There are many who believe others can follow Christ being in another religion and still others who teach that one can have faith in God without Jesus Christ.
This is what this is all about, for if this is true, then we may not need to become a Christian through a spiritual birth, that there are other acceptable
ways to God. The tact of the enemy of God has been and still is to introduce other religions as equally valid and a uniting with them to destroy the truth
in Christianity.
In their Open Letter to the Pope (see
english.pdf),
for the first time in recent history, Muslim scholars from every branch of Islam spoke with one voice about the teachings of Islam.
They warned Pope Benedict XVI that if their offer be rejected, "The very survival of the world is at stake if Muslims and Christians cannot learn to live
together (text of the letter from Muslim leaders to the Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury). (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00218/Open_letter_from__M_218459a.pdf)
The Vatican had a response, saying the Pope cannot sign collective response to Muslims. Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, told I.Media “When we speak of the love
of God, are we speaking about the same love?” http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?page=media&item=88
On October 13th 2006, one month to the day after Pope Benedict XVI’s Regensburg address of September 13th 2006, 38 Islamic authorities and scholars from
around the world, representing all denominations and schools of thought, joined together to deliver an answer to the Pope in the spirit of open intellectual
exchange and mutual understanding. A year after this letter, Muslims have expanded their message. In A Common Word Between Us and You, It is hoped that
this document will provide a common constitution for the many worthy organizations and individuals who are carrying out interfaith dialogue all over the
world. The emphasis is on not only dialogue but an eventual uniting together.
While there should be no barriers for friendships to develop, there is a huge problem with our spiritual beliefs being the same.
In their paper they state “In the Holy Qur’an, God Most High enjoins Muslims to issue the following call to Christians (and Jews—the People of the Scripture):
Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to a common word between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto
Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto
Him).
(Aal ‘Imran 3:64)
The words: we shall ascribe no partner unto Him relate to the Unity of God, and the words: worship none but God, relate to being totally devoted to God.
Hence they all relate to the First and Greatest Commandment. According to one of the oldest and most authoritative commentaries on the Holy Qur’an the
words: that none of us shall take others for lords beside God, mean ‘that none of us should obey the other in disobedience to what God has commanded’.
This relates to the Second Commandment because justice and freedom of religion are a crucial part of love of the neighbour.
Thus in obedience to the Holy Qur’an, we as Muslims invite Christians to come together with us on the basis of what is common to us, which is also what
is most essential to our faith and practice: the Two Commandments
of love. In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful, And may peace and blessings be upon the Prophet Muhammad
A COMMON WORD BETWEEN US AND YOU
In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful, Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and contend with them in the fairest
way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.”
(The Holy Qur’an, Al-Nahl, 16:125) (http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1)
Notice how the invitation is put—they invite Christians to come together with them on the basis of what is common to them. As if we do not practice the
commands of love of Jesus correctly, (according to them we do not). I believe this to be the only conclusion we can come to on the basis of a number of
their beliefs (besides what they wrote) 1) they believe the Bible is corrupted, untrustworthy, ( I can only wonder why they are quoting it). 2) Christians
are unbelievers (this will be made clear as we go on). The last statement qualifies the meaning-- those who stray and those who go aright- what category
do you think the Christian is in?
This same sentiment is repeated in a different manner:
“Finally, as Muslims, and in obedience to the Holy Qur’an, we ask Christians to come together with us on the common essentials of our two religions
… that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God … Let this
common ground be the basis of all future interfaith dialogue between us, (Aal ‘Imran, 3:64).
Notice what it actually says about no partner, this means what we believe about Jesus Christ.
“A Common Word Between Us and You," was signed by 138 Muslim scholars, clerics, and intellectuals from all over the world. Claiming common ground shared
by Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Saying this is about “building true communities of justice, peace, and a lasting security for all,” Sound familiar;
it’s not as if this hasn’t been tried before. The Vatican seemed to stand more on Christian principles, unfortunately, others did not. They responded
in afar more conducive manner showing a lack of wisdom.
The statement was well received by scholars at the Yale Center for Faith and Culture. Moved by the "Muslim hand of conviviality and cooperation extended
to Christians worldwide," in response they extended their "own Christian hand in return,…so that we may live in peace and justice, loving God and neighbors.”
After 138 Muslim scholars and clerics sent an open letter "to leaders of Christian churches, everywhere," titled A Common Word Between Us and You, ( at
www.acommonword.com.)
many of America's top Christian leaders and scholars signed onto a response of support to "A Common Word Between Us and You."
The following response was drafted by scholars at Yale Divinity School's Center for Faith and Culture. In the name of the Infinitely Good God whom we should
love with all our being, Loving God and Neighbor Together: A Christian Response to A Common Word Between Us and You.”
In the Preamble Yale's scholars claim that Christians sinned against Muslims in the Crusades, and still do so by our “excesses in the war on terror.” many
Christians have been guilty of sinning against our Muslim
Neighbors.” They say that if we could achieve religious peace with Muslims, world peace would likely follow.
This was issued by Harold W. Attridge, Dean and Lillian Claus Professor of New Testament, Yale Divinity School--Joseph Cumming, Director of the Reconciliation
Program,Yale Center for Faith and Culture, Yale Divinity School --Emilie M. Townes, Andrew Mellon Professor of African American Religion and Theology,
Yale Divinity School, and President-elect of the American Academy of Religion--Miroslav Volf, Founder and Director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture,
Henry B. Wright Professor of Theology, Yale Divinity School. It was endorsed by almost 300 other Christian theologians and leaders,
[It was published in its entirety as a full-page advertisement in the New York Times on November 18, 2007]
Out of the 300 plus signatures, here are some of the more recognized names that we should know signed onto this. By signing this document we can see where
they stand on issues that concern the health and protection of the church that they claim to be shepherds over.
George Verwer, Founder and former International Director, OM
Berten A. Waggoner, National Director, Association of Vineyard Churches
Richard Mouw, President, Fuller Theological Seminary
Brian D. McLaren, Author, Speak
Rick Warren, Founder and Senior Pastor, Saddleback Church
Tony Jones, National Coordinator, Emergent Village
Bill Hybels, Founder and Senior Pastor, Willow Creek Community Church
Lynn Green, International Chairman, YWAM
David Neff, Editor in Chief and Vice-President,
Christianity Today Media Group
Robert Schuller, Founder, Crystal Cathedral and Hour of Power
Jim Wallis, President, Sojourners
Joseph Hough, President, Union Theological Seminary, NY
David Yonggi Cho, Founder and Senior Pastor, Yoido Full Gospel Church, Seoul, Korea
Richard Cizik, Vice President, National Association of Evangelicals
Emilie M. Townes, wrote a book with Peter Wagner
In the Yale letter: “As members of the worldwide Christian community, we were deeply encouraged and challenged by the recent historic open letter signed
by 138 leading Muslim scholars, clerics, and intellectuals from around the world. A Common Word Between Us and You identifies some core common ground between
Christianity and Islam which lies at the heart of our respective faiths as well as at the heart of the most ancient Abrahamic faith, Judaism.”
Islam actually rejects Abraham and the Bibles account. Ishmael, not Isaac is the child of blessing in Genesis 16. How can a Muslim claim Abrahamic roots
when Ishmael was produced by his wife’s handmaiden, Hagar out of a lack of faith in the promise God gave them.
I have to wonder if any of the Christian signatories are aware of the peace and justice practiced by Islam in their own countries. Do these learned men
not know what the Qur’an says?
The signing is mostly from the religious left wing of the church. Liberal evangelicals are so predictable, like politicians they promise something they
should not, something they cannot deliver. I’m not surprised to hear of neo-evangelicals, emergent promoters of a new Christianity take part in any interfaith
movement agreement with the other religions. Don’t be surprised to see a type of ECT signing in the future if these dialogues continue (Evangelicals and
Catholics Together). After all, there care for the church is not protective as the apostles, Jesus said He gave his life for the church but this same attitude
is not in these men.
Thankfully, some spoke out, but their voices were not many. “The response drew sharp criticism from highly respected theologians R. Albert Mohler, Jr.,
president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and John Piper, pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church, and other Christian leaders.
Piper called the Christian document a "profound disappointment" in the way it was worded and was
surprised that even some of his friends lent their support
to the letter.
The Rev. Canon Dr. Patrick Sookhdeo, the director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity and a British Anglican, applauded the effort
of the Muslim leaders in reaching out to Christian leaders to try to find common ground but he called the Christian response a "betrayal" and "sellout"
of the Christian faith.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLJ_enUS233US233&q=Evangelical+Christian-Muslim+Dialogue++&btnG=Search
Shortly after this Administrators from one of the most influential evangelical colleges in the country removed their names from a controversial letter addressed
to Muslim leaders that some say compromises the Christian faith.
Wheaton College president Duane Litfin, provost Stanton Jones and chaplain Stephen Kellough decided to back away from the letter that they had originally
endorsed …"I signed the statement because I am committed to the business of peace-making and neighbor-love,” Litfin stated on Friday in The Record, the
student publication of Wheaton College. “I did not savor the document’s unnuanced apology section, but swallowed that in order to be a part of reaching
out a hand to these Muslim leaders who had courageously taken the initiative. Though the statement was not written in the way I would have written it,
it seemed to me that I could sign it without compromising any of my Christian convictions.” (“Influential Evangelicals Withdraw from Christian-Muslim Statement”
By Lilian Kwon Christian Post Reporter Feb. 09 2008)
I commend these men for having the courage to turn and to step away from the decision they first made with these other men who lack wisdom. Don’t be fooled
by this so called peace offering, its no less deceptive than the trojan horse was. The goal of Islam is for every person to submit to Allah to have peace
and this is clearly read in between the lines. I see the intention of the letter being to expose Christians to the message of Islam, diminishing any opposition
to its teachings. This is step one in many to prepare Christians to embrace Islamic teaching. In Islamic law Islam cannot make war against the infidel
without the infidels first being offered an opportunity to submit to Islam, I see this letter as part of that concept.
Read other comments about it:
http://caribouyah.blogspot.com/2008/01/more-on-common-word.html
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor137.htm
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071123/30194_Christian_Leaders_Invite_Muslims_to_Love_God,_Neighbors_Together.htm
http://www.yale.edu/faith/abou-commonword.htm
http://www.worldevangelicals.org/We_Too_Want_to_Live_in_Love,_Peace,_Freedom_and_Justice.pdf
To have peace between two of the world's greatest religions is a noble goal. The end of the letter reads:
Finding common ground between Muslims and Christians is not simply a matter for polite ecumenical dialogue between selected religious leaders. Christianity
and Islam are the largest and second largest religions in the world and in history….If Muslims and Christians are not at peace, the world cannot be at
peace.…So let our differences not cause hatred and strife between us. Let us vie with each other only in righteousness and good works. Let us respect each
other, be fair, just and kind to another and live in sincere peace, harmony and mutual goodwill.”
How can Muslims who do know know the one who brings peace to earth work for peace? World peace (or a peaceful co-existence) is to be led by this coalition
of Muslims and Christians together. A promise of "peace" from the enemies of God and Israel should not sit right with anyone who believes in Jesus Christ.
Maybe they can demonstrate what they mean by loving the Jews in Israel. Or is that too much to ask from either side?
Since when is peace up to us? The call for peace from the Muslims necessitates submission to Allah, there is no other way for them.
Their Scholars used quotations from both the Bible and the Qur'an to show the similarities between the two Religions (they call faiths) such as the requirement
to worship one God and to love one's neighbour. But what a Muslim means by one God and Christians are two completely different concepts. The signers assume
Islam and Christianity have strong similarities: love of the same God. This is the most outrageous false statement of them all.
One of many verses from the Qur’an quoted in the letter "A Common Word Between Us and You “ Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to a common word between
us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God.
And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). (Aal ‘Imran 3:64)
Think about what this last portion is actually saying--Islam means "one who submits to God." How anyone can be this ignorant of what they meant by this
letter is beyond comprehension. Only Muslims bow to (God) Allah's will.
If one were to continue to read the portions[s] of the Qur’an that they quote it is not a request for peace at all but a scolding, a rebuke. In the following
verses 65-71 we find exactly what it means:
Sura 3:70-71: Ye People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, of which ye are (yourselves) witnesses?
Ye People of the Book! Why do you clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth while ye have knowledge?
In its context, the Qur’an, is bringing forth a condemnation on both Christianity and Judaism. We need to remember the signatories of this letter are some
of the most learned scholars of Islam, they know what they intend it to mean.
This is more than disappointing for evangelicals to respond to this by a mutual agreement, it brings it on treasonous grounds- making it common shared faith
when it is not.
Islam believes Allah is the only true God, the Qur'an says Allah has no son, Jesus did not die for our sins on the cross nor did he raise from the dead.
On this there is no unity from them. The Jesus of the Qur'an did not die on the Cross but was replaced by another individual. Surah 4:157: “That they said
in boast ‘we killed Christ Isa, the son of Mary’…but they killed him not, nor crucified him.”
This is the basis of the Christian message that “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son...,” (Jn. 3:16) “the Father sent the Son to be
the Savior of the world” Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God” (1 Jn. 4:14-15). This is the love of God, it
was an action taken on our behalf of which Islam denies vehemently. What common ground could we possibly have with those who reject these Christian tenets
of OUR FAITH?
For the Qur’an states: “In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah,
if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every-one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens
and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things" (Surah 5:17).
“O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle
of Allah...."
Not only does the Qur'an not teach of the same God that Christians and Jews worship, but the Jesus of the Qur'an is only a prophet on the level of Moses
or Muhammad. Despite the apparent and huge differences, their point was to present Islam and Christianity as sharing the same Divine Origin (Abrahamic)
to begin the road to co-operation and worldwide co-ordination by our holding to two greatest commandments. They quote “None of you has faith until you
love for your neighbor what you love for yourself,” the Prophet Muhammad said. In the
New Testament we similarly read, “whoever does not love [the neighbor]
does not know God” (1 John 4:8)
This considers the Qur’an, the Torah, and the New Testament as equal in revelation from God. However, the Qur'an fails on all levels to understand Christian
doctrine that was written by the Holy Spirit (whom they claim is Gabriel). Yet the Qur’an claims to be from God even though it contradicts and denies in
no uncertain terms the very core of our faith. But according to these so-called Scholars and leaders we are to acknowledge both the Bible and the Qur’an
to have peace.
Does Muhammad teach love for neighbor? His religious endeavor purged anyone who disagreed, thousands of innocent people were killed in the name of his god
Allah.
They wrote-“Christians mistreated Muslims in the Crusades?
In response the Christian signatories stated: we want to begin by acknowledging that in the past (e.g. in the Crusades) and in the present (e.g. in the
excesses of the “war on terror”) many Christians have been guilty of sinning against our Muslim neighbors. Before we “shake your hand” in responding to
your letter, we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One and of the Muslim community around the world.”
Are we now to ask forgiveness for defeating the Islamic armies that were trying to take over Europe and what is the difference of what they are doing today
throughout the world?
Muslims have a record of killing innocent civilians for centuries before the crusades ever took place, and long after they stopped they continued this.
Islam promises paradise for Muslims dying in jihad against any infidel so how do we accept their statements when they do not correct their own first.
They made this an open letter for a purpose. It’s intention is twofold: 1) to influence the Christian church and 2) have the public believe they have good
intentions. The fact that the Christian signatories didn’t get it does not help the public. I see this as a means to turn more of the church to support
the Palestinian efforts and to undermine Israel. Muslims know that a small by dedicate contingent of the church supports Israel. If they can turn this
around they will have victory and destroy Israel just as they promise over their airwaves and in their prophecies.
While Evangelicals enter into dialogue, they had to first strain themselves to find something in common as the killing from Islam continues. Would it not
be more efficient for them to talk to their own who are killing in their gods name, for the cause of jihad? Should we not insist on our seeing them do
something instead of dialogue with us as if we are to blame.
Sixteen times the Qur'an says Allah is not a Father and has no Son. But the very foundation of Christianity is that "God so loved the world that he gave
his only begotten Son" (Jn. 3:16).
Surah 5:73: “They do blaspheme who say God is one of three…for there is no Allah except one Allah.”
Surah 5:116: “And behold! God will say: O Jesus the son of Mary didst say unto men, ‘worship me and my mother as gods’ in derogation of Allah?
Surah 4:157: “That they said in boast ‘we killed Christ Isa, the son of Mary’…but they killed him not, nor crucified him.”
Their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, He is not God incarnate. how can a knowledgeable Christian consider the Muslim god the Muslim as something we
can cooperate with for the purpose of peace? What kind of Christian leaders are these?
Again from their Qur’an Sura 9:30: The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah.; That is a saying from their mouths;
(in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from Truth! They take their priests
and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship
but One Allah: There is no god but He.”
How do we have common ground with those who reject the core teaching of Christ and God? They are
seeking common ground outside the parameters of the Christian faith not from within it. "Loving God and Neighbor Together" divorces us from the only message
we have to proclaim to the Muslim people! Proclaiming Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the greatest means in our showing love to the Muslim people. So
this has us abandon the our commission from Christ.
The Qur’an also states to the Muslim "Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know
that God is with those who fear him." (Sura 9:124). As already established, if you believe Jesus is the Son of God and worship God in Trinity you blaspheme
and are an infidel.
Does God turn against his own people? Allah tells his followers to not take Jews and Christians as friends and even to kill them as infidels. Hardly a suitable
religious group to have peace with. While this agreement does not include other “faiths” it is the first step toward that by the two largest religions
that have hostilities to abandon them for peace.
This letter is a test for the leaders in the church and they have failed to see its intention.
The Muslims speak of: Freedom to worship God according to the dictates of one's conscience?! How are we are preventing this? We already give Muslims their
religious freedom in the West, but what have they done for others religious freedoms in their countries? This is very one sided. Christians are killed
and churches are burned by the hundreds if not thousands in nearly every muslim majority country, what are they talking about! There is no freedom of the
press, speech, or religion in their countries. Any Muslim who converts to any other religion is to be beheaded, this is their own sharia law.
These men who claim to represent the church have no backbone to stand up for Christ when challenges come, nor do they care to adhere to the actual facts
of history and Islams current actions. Peace with the enemies of God and Israel, who would think it would be even considered by those who run seminaries
and ministries.
Would Jesus tell the church to agree that they worship the same God (in spirit and in truth) or to work with other religions to have a peaceful co-existence
acknowledging each other as sharing the same truths! He didn’t even do this with the Religious leaders of his day who taught the Old Testament and added
their own laws to uphold it.
Christian signatories in response “We share the sentiment of the Muslim signatories expressed in these opening lines of their open letter: Which is-- Without
peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world. The future of the world depends on peace between
Muslims and Christians.
Paul quotes a Greek poet to the Corinthians who had trouble receiving the word of God hoping they would understand a practical principle from their own
culture. “Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits." This concept is all through the book of Proverbs and both Testaments which say “Do not
be unequally yoked together with unbelievers . For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And
what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? (2 Corinthians 6:14-16)
We have a dilemma. What their book says about us, ours says about them (minus anything about killing- instead separation). “Do not be unequally yoked with
unbeliever: One needs to make up their mind on what Islam actually is and what their relationship to Muslims is without compromising their faith.
To have wisdom shows one can recognize these differences and remove themselves from it. Proverbs 2:6-7: “For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come
knowledge and understanding; He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those
who walk uprightly”
There are some Christian signatories that feared for Christians could suffer in Muslim lands if they did not sign. It really is the very opposite. This
is a betrayal of Christian brothers and sisters that are laboring with their lives for the gospel in the Muslim lands! These men are convinced that dialogues
and peace conferences will bring the desired result of peace between the religions. And it will, temporarily, as the false Messiah signs the treaty (covenant)
with many for 7 years. Or did we forget that this is coming in the future?
It is incredulous for these men who signed on do not to see where this is headed. This is to dream the impossible dream-- peace without Christ ruling over
the earth. It will never happen without Him.
Let me point out further that there is a concerted effort by a number of these same signatories to have Israel give up land thereby giving up her security
against the enemies that surround her. A number of these “leaders” have a track record on this.
The support for Israel to be there own nation and governed freely is being opposed by certain evangelicals. Over 30 evangelical leaders stepped forward
to say these efforts have given the wrong impression about the stance of many, if not most, American evangelicals. They “sent a letter to President Bush
saying that both Israelis and Palestinians have “legitimate rights stretching back for millennia to the lands of Israel/Palestine,” and that they support
the creation of a Palestinian state “that includes the vast majority of the West Bank.”
The letter is signed by 34 evangelical leaders, many of whom lead denominations, Christian charities, ministry organizations, seminaries and universities.
They include Gary M. Benedict, president of The Christian and Missionary Alliance, a denomination of 2,000 churches; Richard J. Mouw, president of Fuller
Theological Seminary; Gordon MacDonald, chairman of World Relief; Richard E. Stearns, president of World Vision; David Neff, editor of Christianity Today;
and Berten A. Waggoner, national director and president of The Vineyard USA, an association of 630 churches in the United States.
“This group is in no way anti-Israel, and we make it very clear we’re committed to the security of Israel,” said Ronald J. Sider, president of Evangelicals
for Social Action, which often takes liberal positions on issues. “But we want a solution that is viable. Obviously there would have to be compromises.”
“We think it’s crucial that the Muslim world realize that there are evangelical Christians in the U.S. in large numbers that want a fair solution,” Mr.
Sider said.
They believe “that both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate rights stretching back for millennia to the lands of Israel/Palestine.”
see our Question answer section on-
are there Palestinians.
This is their way to solve the matter, appeasement, when they have no grasp on the real issues- people will die from decisions like these. So to say they
are for the security of Israel is only moot words. They are sending a clear message they oppose those who are dispensational (meaning that those who make
a distinction between Israel and the church) because many hold to a replacement teaching- that the church is the new Israel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/29evangelical.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
To read the letter sent to President Bush to lobby for this unbiblical position and see who the signers are:
Go to--
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/us/evangelical_letter.html
Pt.2
Walking in the Sunset of Ecumenism
Now let me turn to one of the signatories who has a tremendous influence on the new evangelicals in the church- Rick Warren (who also associates himself
with the emergent church movement.) When people follow men who do not have a grasp on matters of importance like this, they too will be misled.
When one has great influence on the church, it can move it to both good and bad, they should be more careful in their public announcements and endorsements.
The Bible makes it clear there is a stricter judgment on teachers. For they can mislead or stumble many new believers.
No false teacher ever has 100% error, it would be too obvious. Instead it is mixed. How much arsenic does it take to kill you from being in a glass of water?
Less than 1%. Wisdom tells us not to drink irst and ask questions later if we have any reservations.
Rick Warren has spoke to United Nations leaders at a UN interfaith prayer breakfast, he spoke at the Council on foreign relations-- His P.E.A.C.E. plan
is a mixture of Christian work ethics, a social gospel which is well received with the humanism in these organizations.
It has become known that Rick Warren is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. While this has been posted on some websites I have not seen someone
explain what this means and how it can affect the church’s that may listen to him.
First let me ask- why would the
Council on Foreign Relations
(CFR) which has a globalist agenda have a Christian Pastor be a member- and why would a Christian accept it? Could it be that the social gospel of Warren
has the elements they are looking for to forge their message to different groups of people? Maybe Warren is just naïve, it doesn’t matter when you help
these organizations that do not have the better interest of the church in mind.
What is the Council on Foreign Relations about:
The Council is a nongovernmental, nonprofit and nonpartisan organization. Religious and Congregational Leaders: The Council on Foreign Relations Religion
and Foreign Policy Initiative engages religious and congregational leaders, scholars, and thinkers, from across the country, in cross-denominational conversations
on global issues; and seeks to serve as a resource of information and analysis on topics at the nexus of religion and foreign policy. Council programming
includes a monthly Religion and Foreign Policy Conference Call series featuring Council fellows and scholars, access to live teleconferences and webcasts
of New York and Washington Council meetings, and a Religion and Foreign Policy Symposia Series.
Outreach
http://www.cfr.org/about/outreach.html
What they say about themselves--Religious and Congregational Leaders: The Council on Foreign Relations Religion and Foreign Policy Initiative engages religious
and congregational leaders, scholars, and thinkers, from across the country, in cross-denominational conversations on global issues; and seeks to serve
as a resource of information and analysis on topics at the nexus of religion and foreign policy. Council programming includes a monthly Religion and Foreign
Policy Conference Call series featuring Council fellows and scholars, access to live teleconferences and webcasts of New York and Washington Council meetings,
and a Religion and Foreign Policy Symposia Series. Outreach
http://www.cfr.org/about/outreach.html
The Council aims to strengthen foreign policy discussions across the country and elsewhere.
convening meetings at which government officials, global leaders, and Council members debate major foreign-policy issues; by operating a
think tank
that is home to the world’s most prominent scholars of international affairs; International Affairs Fellowships and several other fellowship programs aim
to spark interest and participation in world affairs and U.S. foreign policy.
The term NEW WORLD ORDER (or NEW INTERNATIONAL ORDER) has been used privately by the CFR since its creation to describe the coming ONE WORLD government.
However, since the fall of 1990, CFR members have used the term publicly to prepare the public for what lies ahead in the future WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM.
(reference: research by Michael Sunstar)
On February 17, 1950 CFR member James Warburg, testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee stated, “We shall have world government whether
you like it or not—by conquest or consent.”
Dan Smoot, a former member of the FBI headquarters staff in Washington and one of the first researchers into the CFR, summarized the organization’s purpose
as follows: “The ultimate aim of the COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS is to create a ONE WORLD SOCIALIST SYSTEM and make the United States a part of it.”
Devvy Kidd writes in her article "Treasonous agenda of the Council on Foreign Relations-Before any American decides to poo-poo the CFR and their diabolical
agenda, they might wish to read some of the
writings by Barry Goldwater
on this issue.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44841
CFR has been to be associated with a plan that is to set up a New World Order to bring peace across the globe.
Lou Dobbs, CNN Anchor: “Good evening, everybody. Tonight, an astonishing proposal to expand our borders to incorporate Mexico and Canada and simultaneously
further diminish U.S. sovereignty. Have our political elites gone mad? We'll have a special report. Blood ... Now, incredibly, a panel sponsored by the
Council on Foreign Relations wants the United States to focus not on the defense of our own borders, but rather create what effectively would be a common
border that includes Mexico and Canada."
Christine Romans, CNN Correspondent (voice-over): On Capitol Hill, testimony calling for Americans to start thinking like citizens of North America and
treat the U.S., Mexico and Canada like one big country.
Lou Dobb's show on June 9, 2005,
Treasonous agenda of the Council on Foreign Relations June 17, 2005 By Devvy Kidd
WorldNetDaily.com
Consider Rick Warren making this statement: “Who's the man of peace in any village - or it might be a woman of peace - who has the most respect, they're
open and they're influential? They don't have to be a Christian. In fact, they could be a Muslim, (Rick Warren guest speaker at the
The Pew Forum on Religion.
Read the transcripts
May 23, 2005. )
Since he signed A COMMON WORD BETWEEN US AND YOU document along with others there does seem to be an apparent ongoing conflict with Biblical teaching and
Biblical separation.
2007 Rick Warren speaking at the Clinton Global Initiative. In attendance with Bill Hybels
http://www.clintonglobalinitiative.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=1724&srcid=1612
RICK WARREN:
“When one drop of rain falls, it makes no difference at all. If you get a million drops of rain falling, you can turn a desert into a forest. And the willingness
to partner is I believe at the root of why we haven’t solved these problems already, people willing to put aside the things that they differ on and work
together on the things that they agree on.
Last year, I spoke at Davos, the World Economic Forum, and I kept hearing people talking about we need public and private partnerships. And that’s true.
But if all there was that was needed was government and business, then we would have already done it by now. It actually takes a three-legged stool for
there to be stability. A one-legged stool will fall over. A two-legged stool will fall over. You have to have three legs. And if we are going to team tackle
these big issues like poverty, disease, illiteracy, trafficking, corruption and so many other issues, we’re going to somehow have to tap into the largest
pool of volunteer manpower in the world. It’s two thirds of the world.
It’s called the people of faiths, plural. There are 600 million Buddhists in the world. That’s a large number. There are 800 million Hindus in the world.
There are a billion Muslims in the world. There are 2.3 billion Christian members of churches.
Now, as a pastor, of course I’m interested in the last one. But they all matter. They all matter. When I think about 2.3 billion people who say they’re
a member of a church somewhere, that makes the church bigger than China. That makes the church bigger than India. In fact, it makes the church bigger than
China and India put together.
Now, if you want to say, “Well, we can’t have anybody of any faith doing humanitarian effort,” you just ruled out most of the world, because really, outside
of Manhattan and Europe, there aren’t really that many secularists. [Laughter] The fact is most people have some kind of faith. It doesn’t matter to me
what it is at that point, but if they’re willing to work on the issues, that’s what matters.”
Lets go over what he said--
It’s called the people of faiths, plural.
Stating Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims. And “ they all matter”
In what manner do they matter? Warren answers this saying “The fact is most people have some kind of faith. It doesn’t matter to me what it is at that point,
but if they’re willing to work on the issues, that’s what matters.”
Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims have faith! Not according to the Bible. But then if you don’t go by the Bible anything can be moved into the circle you have
made for faith[s].
This is the bottom line – that Warren (and many others) are willing to have “unity in the faiths” instead of unity in THE faith shows us the underlying
motivation for what he wants to take place. This disturbs me to no end.
Let me address his belief system he is engaged with. Jude 3 “I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which
was once for all delivered to the saints.”
Look it up- you will not find the word “faiths” in the Bible, nor is the concept upheld. Why? Because there is only one faith, and this faith Warren is
not earnestly contending for at all.
Scripture exhorts us to contend for the faith that was given to us through the Hebrew prophets and the Bible, for faith comes from hearing the word of
God. We are not to be contending for the unity of faiths.
Paul wrote “It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, Galatians
2:20). This is the Faith the Bible teaches, the faith that Paul had. If you have this faith you are a Christian, not another religion.
Paul also admonishes ministers “Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of
your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, and not in any way terrified by your adversaries,
which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God” (Philippians 1:27-29).
With Warren’s attitude, you can unite with 9/10’s of the world’s religions. This is the very thing the Bible warns of taking place in the last days and
Warren and others who are ignoring prophecy (as they claim) are fulfilling it.
Warren is in the same line of so many interfaith proponents.
Warren says: “there is a government role and there is a business role, and there is a faith role”
Speaking of traveling around the world “ And in every country I went in, I would meet with the president and the government leaders, I’d meet with the business
leaders, I’d meet with the church leaders and say, “Can we follow that great theologian, Rodney King, and just get along? Can we not work together on the
things that matter and make a difference?”
Warrens appeal to a man who used human reasoning and not the Bible is a typical diaprax method.
Warren goes further by stating: “The second thing people of faith have— they’re not just universal distribution— they have the largest manpower of volunteers.
Nobody comes close to the hundreds of millions of people who volunteer through their Jewish congregation, Muslim congregation, Christian congregation,
or whatever around the world, on a weekly basis.
You can’t talk about community development without talking about people who are apart of faith communities.
So, my commitment is about four years ago, I said, how could we mobilize? What if we mobilized a billion of those two billion, in just my faith, in Christianity,
to make a difference. And we decided, we would do a pilot project, that we called the PEACE Program. And, PEACE is an acronym. P-E-A-C-E. It stands for
promote reconciliation, equip leaders, assist the poor, care for the sick, and educate the next generation. We have been quietly behind the scenes testing
this prototype for four years now, trying to build a plane as we rode it. I, in my own church, I have had over 7,500 of my members; have been overseas
in the last three years working in 68 countries.
we just launched, what we call PEACE 2.0. One of the things, we learned is that other people, groups beside churches, said hey we would like to do that,
we would like to partner, we would like to promote reconciliation and equip leaders and assist the poor, and care for the sick, and educate the next generation.
And I said, well, there is an idea here, a three-legged stool, where business has a role, profits have a role, and faith has a role. You see, honestly,
I don’t care what your motivation is for helping people, as long as you do it. It doesn’t have to be my motivation, as long as you do it.
Warren says “there’s good political motivation- There are businesses who do it for profit motivation…..We say we want to provide pharmaceuticals, make a
profit, and help people. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, I wish more organizations did it. I wish more people would make a profit and do good at the
same time. It is not my motivation, but it is a good one. Some people do what they do because of a personal motivation. I do it because I have a savior
called Jesus Christ who said love your neighbor as yourself. Now, that doesn’t have to be your motivation for me to work with you. It’s just my motivation.
I am told to love my neighbor as myself. And, so I have found that faith organizations are far more willing to partner with NGOs and governments than vice
versa and I am say it is not going to get done unless you get all three legs of the stool. Thank you. [Applause]
So Warren’s peace program is more than just the church doing good works to their neighbors.
This is another type of "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" and it probably will not be the last.
If they do not look to the Bible to see if what they are doing is right and acceptable to God, it’s not surprising they end up united with those who oppose
Jesus?
Did the true believers of the early church work with unbelievers to affect their culture? Did they work hand in hand with the Romans who had faith in their
gods?
The faith that is explained in the Bible is connected to the word of truth. It is abandoned for interfaith with other cultures and religions. The Bible
says we are to maintain a “separation” from the world and other religious influences and beliefs, instead the message is to have a global unity of faith[s]
to accomplish good.
There is one faith, one Lord not many.
As we are living in this late hour heeding what John writes in Revelation 3:2 we might “strengthen the things which remain.”
Wistom comes from reason, experience and from reading wise things. As for choosing sides, I will remain forever loyal and true to The Gods and Goddesses of the Hellenic pantheon, above, on Earth and below. Jews, Christians and Muslims all basically worship the same god, just Christians have Christ, whom they see as a god and Muslims have Muhammad whom they see as a prophet and all came from the Jews. Why can't all agree that they have the same basic love of a single god, call him whatever you'd like, and move on? It sounds like the christians are blowing this way out of proportion. Even if the Koran says those things, they didn't include them in the letter. I'm sure that there are unpleasant things in Christian texts that come before or after the "moral" and "rightous" things that followers are always quoting. The Muslims are extending a hand to you, trying to reach out and find common ground after centuries of fighting. Don't tell me you can't find common elements on which to agree. Okay, so some of your beliefs are different. That's no reason to hate each other. If you're gonna do that, do it cause of actual things they've done to you, not cause of how they see your views. No, the others who signed the letter didn't show a lack of wisdom. They showed tolerance (there's that word again), common sense and logic. Wait, those are ideas taken from my people. Hmmm. And I have to wonder if the Christian right wingers are aware of just how spotty their own record is? How many civilisations did your ancients destroy. How many women were raped, children killed, priests and priestesses hanged, murdered and tortured, how many temples and books with vasts amounts of knowledge did your people ruin? Guess who preserved science and enlightened thinking when you were in The Dark Ages? No, not us pagans. You'd already killed us off. It was the Muslims. Gods forbid that some people with brains agree to sign an agreement that would promote peace and understanding. Oh no, cause it's a necessary evil that innocent people have to die over some words in a book, even today. ones who bring peace to Earth are the ones who are willing to sit down and make compromises and to reason with another. Stop pinning everything on one man. Even if he was a demigod or a full god, people have to take responsibility for their own actions at some point. Both Muslims and christians do bad things today. But that's a topic for another discussion which can hopefully be bridged once the basic groundwork is set.
As for Israelis and Palestinians not both having legitimate rights to the land in question, I've never ever understood that argument. Personally, I support Palestine, but anyway. Both consider the land sacred to their deity. So why not say "it's god's land and doesn't belong to mortals and we are to respect it" and let that be that? I hate to say it, but the idea of foreign relations doesn't serve any church or religious group. Of course, there are ministries of various countries with their own agendas but the notion of foreign relations isn't supposed to bend to the will of any one faith. It's supposed to help cement, maintain or create ties or at least provent fighting between various nations. That's it. As for this council, I really don't know much about it. But I think we finally agree on something. I am aware of the New World Order and it worries me too but not for religious reasons. I fear it'll take away freedoms and cultural identity. As for men and women of peace, why must they be Christians? Come to think of it, why must they be religious at all? Just cause I am and just cause you are doesn't mean the whole world has to be. This Rick Warren sounds like a very intelligent man. What does it matter what religion you follow so long as you're willing to work on the issues at hand? Share in your commanalities and come to a meeting point and then you can work on the differences. Maybe, if these fundamentalists can get their heads out of the past and out of their little books things could get accomplished. Not everyone is Christian and not everyone wants to be. When will you people face facts? Be happy with your god and your religion. No one's trying to take it away. But stop shoving it down people's throats. It's the fundies in all religions that keep the world the way it is and that won't let humanity progress. The Bible didn't have the word "faiths" cause it's writers were either intolerant or were, as all humans, confined to their time and place. They couldn't predict that all these different religions could exist in the world, especially while they were trying to wipe clean all the rest. We are humans and therefore should use human reasoning. The very idea of us not doing so is purely illogical. Thank The Gods for this man and may he be blessed. Glad there are people out there like him. No, the early church didn't work with the nonbelievers. They had a much better idea you see. They murdered them! Oh, wait. Isn't that against your ten commandments or did Jesus make those null and void? It seems you people are confusing interfaith dialogue with syncrinism, in which a religion absorbs elements from surrounding faiths. that's not what they're saying. They just wanna work with you but I guess that's above your comprehention.
Okay, I don't know what else say. Way to go, Tiffanitsa!
*hug* Thanks. Just my humble opinions but they certainly make sense when you look reasonably at them.
Testimony
MY TESTIMONY (Mike Oppenheimer)
I was brought up Jewish, went to Shabbat quite faithfully each Friday and celebrated the holydays at the temple and with family. Our family like many others, gathered together on the high holy days in observance. I attended Hebrew school twice a week and learned the language and eventually was Bar Mitzvahed and confirmed. While attending classes I asked a lot of questions about God the Rabbi could not answer. Though I continued each year, mainly to please my parents, I became less interested in the traditional religion of my parents and feeling hindered in my spiritual development, leaped head first into my own brand of freestyle spirituality after graduation.
By my own search in reading and attending lectures and gatherings I got involved in the New Age Movement, became a vegetarian and for 15 years practiced yoga and meditation. I ended up using psychedelic drugs for a time (LSD, mescaline etc.), as part of my regular religious observances and smoking “pakalolo” (pot) became part of my normal lifestyle. During these times I also experimented with various religions and the occult. I felt they each contained some part of the truth of the one “true” religion, just as Rosicrucianism teaches all religions are petals on the same flower.
I studied about the Ancient Masters of the East, learning about Buddhism and Zen I picked up on a number of the practices. I had a number of spiritual experiences which at the time I was sure were from God and leading me to a greater knowledge of myself and Him. I discovered and believed in the Ascended Masters that were guiding our world into a greater evolutionary path. I was involved with UFO’s and channeled messages. I was sure I was on the right spiritual path because of the various signs things just fell into place. At the same time I also read the Bible (even the New Testament), not denying my Jewish roots. I began reading over 50 books a year, having an insatiable spiritual appetite, but God was working on my exit out of this spiritual bondage.
I had also started to surf before beginning my spiritual pilgrimage. I fell in love with the sport and began traveling, surfing and entering contests. Surfing became my livelihood after I learned to shape surfboards for a living. I became the NY champion for a number of years and eventually the eastern surfing champion for two years. Hawaii proved to be an irresistible attraction due to its fantastic surf. I moved permanently to Hawaii with my girlfriend Kathy in the mid 70's. This gave me more freedom to pursue both my first love of surfing and my freelance spirituality. We thought we were becoming enlightened. Reading books about the Ascended Masters involvement and “learning” about Earth’s past history on Lemuria and Atlantis. We desired to become servants of the New age movement, convinced that if we all united we could usher in an age of spiritual cooperation and enlightenment that so many were talking about. After nine years my searching came to a head when my girlfriend Kathy and I started to pursue our spiritual hunger more seriously and became involved in the “I Am Movement” (the Saint Germaine Society of the Ballard's). Through calling on angels and powers unknown to us and by “decreeing” and using the Violet Consuming Flame to eradicate past life karma, we were learning to become active in the New Age Movement. At the time, Kathy was practicing affirmations, mantras, studying herbology, polarity therapy, kinesiology and learning about the supposed spiritual energies of the body. She also was a manager of a health store on the Island of Oahu.
At the same time, the Lord started moving ahead with His rescue plan and during one week we had two friends over who had recently became Christians. One was also a surfer that I knew from New York. We talked about end-time events for hours. Since I was familiar with, as I had been reading the Bible for years, and was especially fascinated about the end of the age. (At that time we both thought Christians were very narrow minded about their view of the Bible, God and the world. Kathy and I used to laugh about how the New Age was coming in without Christians even being aware of it, and were still trying to live in the old traditions and were not going to be part of it). Later that week my friends invited us to a seminar that just so happened to be on the New Age Movement with speakers Dave Hunt, Johanna Michaelson and Hal Lindsey. Talk about timing! It was also during that same week that I heard an audible voice say, “I am the Lord your God, you shall not want.” I recognized this was from Psalm 23 from my Jewish upbringing and had never experienced anything like it. Inside I knew this was the God I was searching for but still did not know. It was only later I would understand why this voice was outside and not from inside me.
I attended the Christian conference on Bible prophecy and the New Age Movement that week while Kathy stayed home doing her New Age affirmations. She wasn't feeling well that day and unknowingly had really been going through a spiritual battle all that week. At the conference, I was shocked to hear the other side of the story. The information I heard seemed incredible. The speakers knew all about the occult techniques Kathy and I were following and practicing, and about the New Age Movement’s master plans. I spoke to Dave Hunt briefly during a break and he answered a number of important questions. One was why Jesus said, “why you have forsaken me?” Though I was reading the Bible all these years I could not understand the gospel contained in it. I was blinded by the viewpoints ingrained from the New Age influences. I was also challenged by Dave on the occult practices in which I was personally involved practicing. He was aware of the “I am societies” practices. One question he asked was, “If you're God did you create the universe? I had never thought this through. If I'm trying to become god through all these New Age techniques, how could this be possible, when God was always all knowing and all powerful (according to the Scriptures and what I had heard through their speaking that night). It was through this question that a chain of events led to the Lord really ministering the truth to my heart and mind. When the conference resumed Johanna spoke and I was relating to a lot she had experienced, especially in regards to the Ascended Master “Jesus”. Then she spoke about another Jesus – the true Jesus of the Bible, which came as a total shock. I never thought there could be false Jesus' parading around as the real one. They were only Jesus by name but not the One who is God come in the flesh. It all made sense. When she prayed my heart was pierced, I knew I had heard the truth, but the question was; what would I do about it?
All the way home I wrestled with the realization that I had wasted the past 15 years believing and doing the wrong things. (Prior to this I thought Christians were very narrow minded but now I had to reconsider that I was too open-minded and had bought into a lie.) I asked my friends who took me to the meeting numerous questions that were running through my mind. Being new Christians, they could answer only a few of them. They just kept saying to me, “we know the Bible is God's Word and Jesus is the truth.”
Kathy was waiting up for me when I got home. It was late and she was actually scared that I would come home a Christian from the meeting! As I came in a peace came in the house and on her, as I sat her down and shared about how the Christians viewed the last days and how it wasn't anything like what we were being taught in the New Age Movement. It was then that the Holy Spirit revealed to Kathy that not only were we following the wrong Jesus (2 Cor.11:4), but that we were worshiping Satan, and that he is a real being. Then the fear of God fell upon us and for the first time we got
down on our knees and prayed to the true living God to forgive us for the occult beliefs we had been deceived into practicing. The Lord got the last laugh, but it was a pleasant one of victory.
The next morning we both went to a Christian church and the pastor got to the pulpit and said that he was told to change the sermon. He spoke on sin, Satan and Jesus Christ, we thought our friends had tipped him off but it was the Lord. We heard the gospel explained and dedicated our lives to the Lord, repenting and asking Christ to forgive us. Thank the Lord He intervened. We were saved together in the year 1986. It was later that week I found out that it was on the 20th anniversary of my confirmation day when God spoke that previous week to me Psalm 23. The last thing I read in front of the congregation in the temple 20 years before had been Proverbs 4:1-2 “Hear my children, the instruction of a Father, and give attention to know understanding. For I have given you good doctrine, forsake not my law.” Unfortunately, I did forsake His Law, for 20 years- but God brought me and my soon-to-be wife back. Five weeks after our spiritual birth Kathy and I were married and today have a 15 year old son who has been learning and become very interested in the debate of creation versus evolution among other interests.
Immediately, I began to study the Bible and learn apologetics in order to give answers to those who ask why we believe in Christ and why Jesus is God in the flesh. Since 1988 I have continued teaching on the cults and aberrant world views including how the cults deny grace and opt for works to be accepted by God. These include the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and also the occult (New Age world view) which is now very present inside the Church.
By the grace of God I have had the privilege to have taught at Hope Chapels, Calvary Chapels, Church of Christ, Youth With A Mission, United Methodist Church, Grace Brethren, Assembly of God and various other Hawaii congregations. I have also had the opportunity to share in small group studies around the Island and have been involved in a number of debates. The Lord has currently provided us with the opportunity to host a TV program and had live call-in broadcast called “Let Us Reason” on a local Christian station as well as featured on several other live radio broadcasts in Hawaii. I am currently a missionary for Witness Inc., the world’s largest counter cult ministry reaching out to Jehovah’s Witnesses.
In 1994 Let Us Reason Ministries was founded as an up-to-date apologetic resource center to instill both confidence and a desire to lead others to Christ. This is done by helping equip believers with both Biblical, and logical answers for their Christian faith. I have learned many things along the way that need to be passed on to others to encourage as well as equip them in their witnessing. It’s my hope that this ministry will be able to prompt believers to personally meet and evangelize people who are in cults and false religions as well as discern and call attention to false doctrine within the Church.
Mike Oppenheimer
I'm so sorry that this happened to this poor man and his wife. While I don't support psychedelic drugs, I do support questioning and not blind faith. Not every path is right for everyone and so I could understand how they still might be searching. I wouldn't have a problem with them becoming Christian if they remained open to, or at least respectful of, other paths. But they turned fundamentalist. How sad.
Very interesting, that they don't support Jehovah's Witnesses. I would've thought that they work together. I wonder why not? What denomination are these people?
POSSIBLE SOLUTION: if you wanna know, as to whether they're DENOMINATIONAL, NON-DENOMINATIONAL, ANY OTHERWISE, or NEITHER OF THE ABOVE, you're just gonna have to go to www.letusreason.org, click on the "contact" link, and SIMPLY ASK! QUESTION: if MANY/ALL PATHS are SUPPOSED to lead to the ONE SAME PLACE (HEAVEN), what's to SEARCH, since there AREN'T "ADDITIONAL DESTINIES?" Ok, THAT didn't come out as it probably SHOULD have, BUT what I'm REALLY saying, with a DEFINITELY WEAK ATTEMPT of SARCASM, is that REGARDLESS of ANY BELIEF SYSTEM, there IS only ONE ROAD, and THAT, ONLY. TRAVELING that ONE ROAD, and ONLY THAT ROAD, it's NEVER about SEARCHING, but SEEKING. The EXTREME DIFFERENCE between the two's VERY SIMPLE: SEARCHING NEVER GUARANTEES FINDING; what it DOES guarantee is TOTAL UNCERTAINTY, WISHFUL HOPING, "MYSTERY MADNESS," and the VERY ABSOLUTE LIKE. SEARCHING denotes COMPLETE LONELINESS, FEAR, BONDAGE, INSECURITY, etc., and since it might SEEM like there's NEVER any POSSIBLE END to it ALL, NOTHING'S guaranteed, ONLY ACCORDING to THAT CIRCUMSTANCE, ONLY, except for CONSTANT, CONTINUED HOPELESSNESS, RELATIVE ANSWERS, and all of such of THAT like. SEEKING, a DEFINITE, TOTAL, ACCURATELY-DEFINITIVE OPPOSITION to the ABOVE-MENTIONED CONTRAST, is CLEARLY "LIKENED" to THAT of the VERY FACT that if it's NIGHT, the IMMEDIATE-FOLLOWING is MORNING, which SUCH is something that you SEEK, because it's the DEFINITE INEVITABLE, if that's what you wanna CALL it; you don't SEARCH for it--as of RIGHT NOW, AS I'M WRITING, at almost 9:00 PM, EASTERN, MAYBE I oughta "SEARCH AHEAD," ONLY to POSSIBLY be SADLY DISAPPOINTED that ONLY THREE HOURS from the TIME MENTIONED ABOVE, it COULD wind up as having gone back to 4:00 PM, EASTERN TIME, SUNDAY, SEPT. 13, 2009, but then AGAIN, it might end up as some OTHER day, month, year, CENTURY.
Although that might've been ANOTHER weak sarcasm-attempt, I HOPE that I was able to bring out the VERY ABSOLUTE POINT that there DEFINITELY IS the VERY DIFFERENCE between one, SEARCHING, and one, SEEKING; GOD-SOUGHT, NOT SEARCHED, is DEFINITE ASSURENCE that HE'S GOD-FOUND, instead of IMAGINED/ASSUMED/CONJURED, etc. ANY/ALL OTHER/OTHERS, SUBSTANTIALLY DON'T MEASURE UP, but if you're JUST AS ADAMANT about following "THE PATH OF MANY PATHS" LIE, and that there's ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGING that you'll EVER allow the TRUE GOD, who's DEFINITELY MY LORD AND SAVIOR, INDEED, who could VERY WELL be YOURS, as HE could be ANYBODY'S/EVERYBODY'S (IF ALLOWED, just as I said BEFORE), that's YOUR CHOICE, and YOURS, ONLY, but you'll DEFINITELY be ETERNALLY DISAPPOINTED, DEVASTATINGLY. Is YOUR choice WORTH THAT? I would CERTAINLY HOPE NOT!
It is impossible for me, in my humble wisdom, for I have not yet attained the knowledge to know such things, to know why on Earth you can't answer a question simply and without such verboseness as to make the mind spin as if it were the blade of a fan. For only such a manner can describe the likeness and depth of emotions I feel while reading your disjointed pollaver in which little is said but in which many words are used in expressing a simple fact which is not yet attainable by the human mind for all it's glory. For without the aid of another, and while writing in a singular fashion, as only a single person can do, you say very little that hasn't yet been said and convolude it so as to confuse the reader into believing that he/she has read a wealth of knowledge and profound ideas when, in fact, he/she has barely turned the first page of the essay.
Well, you SEE, THIS is where the VERY ART of TECHNOLOGY DAN/DOES come in "PERFECT" HANDY (as "PERFECT" as it PROBABLY can ONLY GET). Whatever you DON'T understand, WHY NOT DIRECTLY CONTACT EITHER/ALL of any of the ABOVE CONTACTS of the ORIGINAL MESSAGES that I've posted, because ALTHOUGH I'M the one that's posted ALL that I did, in the VERY WAY that I did, I'm DEFINITELY NOT ALWAYS ABLE to SIMPLIFY, without the VERY FEAR of OMISSION, whereas, someone else MIGHT NOT; the PERHAPS-PROBABLE/POSSIBLE CONCERN is: are YOU WILLING to ACCEPT what you hear as ABSOLUTE TRUTH, or are you still going the way that you're going NOW, REGARDLESS the outcome?
"DAN" should've been "CAN," in the IMMEDIATE-PREVIOUS POST--my appologies.
Okay, why can't the original poster use nice, concise and to the point sentences so that the context of the post can actually be understood? I think you mentioned you were a pastor or preacher or something. After reading your posts; I am beginning to wonder how long those people have to sit in your church or whatever. I thought only the Catholic religion rambled on so long, but I think I'm wrong.
And, there may be one true and only path for you, but others are still searching in the hopes of finding what's right for them. And, to me, seeking is the same is searching. You seek something and you search for something, but you're not sure exactly just what that thing is until you find it.
f people would just learn to tolerate, that is not to try blowing up others or trying to convert them but live in peace with others, then there wouldn't be all this stupid war over religions that are thousands of years old and ground that is actually just dirt and sand and rock with maybe a dinosaur fossil or two hidden somewhere in all that soil.
If you can learn to accept people for who they are and what they believe and to not shove your own religion down their throats; this might be a much better world for everyone.
You follow your own religious path and let others follow whatever they believe in and things will be fine.
See? Nice, to the point, understandable sentences.
There was an old saying once from Japanese or Chinese culture and I probably don't have it exactly right but:
Listen to one who speaks much and learn nothing.
Listen to one who speaks little and learn much.
NO, ABSOLUTELY NEVER, did I EVER say that I'm any PASTOR, PREACHER, or ANY of the sort--I'm DEFINITELY NOT QUALIFIED, CERTIFIED or ANY-OTHERFIED--THOSE POSTS that you're referring to, are QUOTES from OTHER sources, such as www.letusreason.org, www.gotquestions.org, and/or OTHERS that I can't rattle off, but the MAIN IMPORTANT is that SUCH SOURCES are DEFINITELY GENUINE, as far as KNOWING ALL of WHATEVER ASSORTMENT of BIBLICALLY-BASED FACTS that explain the VERY TRUTH that EVERYONE OF US is ABSOLUTELY FREE to either ACCEPT OR REJECT, REALIZING that SUCH FREEDOM to do EITHER/OR DOES HAVE A PRICE, which is the ONLY "EQUAL COMMONALITY," if there's such a word, of EITHER CHOICE, but the DEFINITELY DRASTIC CONTRAST is that ONE is a price that we CAN afford, BUT would NEVER HAVE to; the OTHER is what we ABSOLUTELY CAN'T, but can ALWAYS CHOOSE to--OH--ONE MORE EQUALLY-COMMON GROUND is that SUCH CHOICE for EITHER/OR can ONLY BE MADE during THIS LIFETIME, and it's ONLY AFTER THIS LIFE, that NEITHER CHOICE is REVERSABLE.
Now, JUST FOR THE HECK of it, I'M going to travel to SOUTH CAROLINA from NEW YORK CITY, by ONLY HEADING NORTH, because to ME, which MIGHT NOT be according to YOUR "theoretic opinion," to ONLY ACCEPT that the ONLY WAY to get to SOUTH CAROLINA from NEW YORK CITY WOULD be to head SOUTH shows COMPLETELY NARROW-MINDED INTOLERANCE of ME, PERSONALLY, when you neither SUPPORT nor ENABLE MY ALMIGHTY OPINION, whose VERY FEET that I FALL DOWN and WORSHIP AT, so for THAT, you're a BIGGOT, a "MAP FANATIC," whose CONSTANTLY TRYING to SHOVE YOUR "ROUTE" down OUR THROATS, and an "INSENSITIVE DIRECTIONALIST." It's "FANATICAL DIRECTIONALISTS," like YOURSELVES, that are HIPPOCRITS, when YOU claim that YOUR way is RIGHT, and MINE is WRONG, ALL THE TIME, EVERY TIME. HOW "TRAVEL-CONSERVATIVE" you are! ALL MAPS AND GLOBES should be taken out of schools, because I feel that it's "POLITICALLY INCORRECT" to INFLUENCE CHILDREN with this UNACCEPTABLE NONSENSE. They should be made WELL AWARE of the VERY FACT that ALTHOUGH this is an ABSOLUTE STATEMENT, followed by MORE ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS, such as that there's ABSOLUTELY NO SUCH DIRECTION as either NORTH, SOUTH, EAST, or WEST, that those are ONLY "MEANDERATIONS," to ONLY MEAN that there are NO SUCH THINGS as DIRECTIONS, PERIOD, ALSO MEANS that THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO ABSOLUTES, PERIOD! DO I MAKE MYSELF ABSOLUTELY CLEAR?
ANYWAY, MAPS AND GLOBES should be replaced by ... uh ... JIGSAW and CROSSWORD PUZZLES!
OK--the above WELL-INTENDED SARCASM DEFINITELY EQUALS what's echoed throughout the WORLD, ESPECIALLY HERE in the US--"It's MY BELIEF vs. YOURS, YOURS is NO BETTER than MINE (nor VICE VERSA), there ain't no ""GOOD GUY," there ain't no ""BAD GUY," it's only YOU and ME, and WE BOTH DISAGREE (WOO-OO-OO-WOW-WOW!), ONLY BECAUSE there are ABSOLUTELY NO ABSOLUTES, WHATSOEVER," etc. YES, of COURSE, this DOES MEAN, VERY MUCH, in FACT, TOTALLY, that no matter HOW MUCH the fact that there ARE absolutes is DENIED, it's NEVER DISPROOVED, nor will it EVER be, which is DEFINITELY DISTURBING, UNACCEPTABLE, and ALTOGETHER THREATENING, which is a GOOD thing--ACTUALLY, it's the BEST thing. "RIGHT" and "WRONG," along with ANY/ALL OTHER ABSOLUTES, are JUST AS SUCH, NO MORE NO LESS, TOTALLY REGARDLESS. The VERY FACT that ONE'S REACTION as HAVING BEEN DISTURBED by this ABSOLUTELY INEVITABLE ELEMENT of FACT, is TOTALLY OBVIOUS PROOF that such IS the case, and that DENIAL of such is JUST LIKE denying that the HUMAN BRAIN could NEVER SURVIVE, INDEFINITELY, WITHOUT OXYGEN.